Easiest Blade and Chisel Sharpening

[D_W]

DW; were you able to determine if the edge retention of pmv11 vs 01 closely matched that of Veritas's earlier claims.

Stewie;

http://www.pm-v11.com/Images/story_RadarChart.JPG

Their claims are actually accurate. As are the sharpening claims, more or less. It is far more tolerant of a variety of mediums than A2 (most importantly, it takes a good edge off of a washita - better edge than O1, it wears under the microscope evenly like carbon steel does), and in all of the stroke tests, it planed double the footage and weight of shavings that the best O1 irons do before showing the same signs of wear (plane not staying in the cut under its own weight), and 70% more than A2. It grinds twice as slow as O1, which is where it's hiding its wear resistance, I guess - the properties of the steel itself make it seemingly as easy to hone, but we're probably just honing half as much of it off in a typical process.

PM M4 is probably the gold standard in plane blade wear, and in clean wood, the two are approximately equivalent.

Aside from cost and limited availability of the base steel stock that it's made from, it makes A2 obsolete (easily) and won't rust.

I did, however, find the way the findings were communicated by the V11 page to be offputting because there are relative numbers in it and no actual data, and I thought my data findings would prove some of it false.

I still find the presentation offputting, but it matches its claims.

It also yields less planing resistance than everything else in the test, including carbon steel, and a brighter finish through the entire test than does O1. I'm not sure LV ever marketed any of those things. The base steel is something that anyone who can reach 1900 degrees can harden and temper (two mapp torches in a coffee can forge)..I've made a bunch of irons out of it quenched in oil, and they are similar enough that nobody would notice the difference. The same wear ratio exists, but it is more tolerant of overheating (as in 61 hardness is achieved at about the same temper temperature as steel, but if someone managed to blue it, it would be 59 hardness and still usable whereas O1 would be too soft to use and need to be ground off). It's slow grinding (which means back flattening is difficult if you'd make your own irons, except that it's far more stable even than O1, so there's little warping to flatten off).

There are cross-references (once the steel was identified) in knife slicing tests where the same durability ratios show up.

I'm guessing the legal department or someone at LV prevented them from just posting actual data on their page. It's a fantastic steel, but i gather that it's something that they found by trial, not something that was developed for them or specially created as some might infer.

they also sat back and took criticism from everyone about how "it's not that great" without saying anything or lighting anyone up, which is more than I could've tolerated. Some of that was criticism from me.

I never liked A2. I can't say the same about the V11 and the steel that it's made from. It's ideal for knives and plane irons, made only by one mill and may not be around forever because there aren't multiple other markets for it like there are with the high-vanadium steels.

 

[woodbloke66]

I know I'm always repeating myself on this

Indeed Jacob...I started on UKW donkey's years ago and the mantra hasn't changed one iota :lol: :lol: - Rob

 

[D_W]

I bet the OP wishes he never asked. ](*,)

Not quite. It is indeed an information overload, but I'd rather have more information than less. It had been very useful to make a decision as to which road to take and also hear about everyone's experiences with different methods and makes if components.

I got myself a coarse and a fine diamond plate from ultex, as it had been referred to by a few members here.

I got them yesterday and tried them out on my no.4 plane and a couple of my old Marples chisels. It is astonishing what a sharp tool can do!

I did use a guide though. I also discovered a combination water stone in the garage which I also used. Getting the hang of it slowly.

Thank you everyone for your suggestions, it really helped.

Best regards
B

We don't have the ultex plates here (by brand, maybe we do now), but the DMD branded version can be bought straight from china. They are wonderful plates for the money. If you find frustration flattening the back of anything, use good quality paper on glass instead - some of the ultex/DMD stones aren't perfectly flat, but fine for day to day use. Some of the much more expensive plates aren't that flat, either. Only the certified plates, the plastic base/core DMT stones (which are expensive) and the atoma plates are actually flat. The arrangement of the diamonds (in piles) on the atoma stones gives them a strange feel, but better durability in the long term. I don't like the feel of the 400 for honing, but they're a super waterstone flattener.

At any rate, far more money sense to solve the flatness issue elsewhere, it's generally minor, anyway. The chinese milled steel plates with electroplate diamonds on them are great, and much of the stuff (like the senselessly expensive trend plates) appear to be the same thing or very similar. On a razor board that I used to read, several of the members purchased trend plates (the ones that were at that time, $140 here) and found that their flatness spec "per inch", which it relatively pointless for us yielded stones that may have been relatively flat per inch, but weren't flat enough to contact the established flat bevel on a razor from end to end. Unacceptable. The language on them was misleading, some thought they were made in the UK but found that they were, at least at that time, made in china.

 

[D_W]

I bet the OP wishes he never asked. ](*,)

For us newbies, who haven't seen all this before, it is actually quite useful. I imagine it wears a bit thin after the 40th time around, especially if you already know how to sharpen a chisel.

if you're around for a while, you'll get to the 40th repetition reading a thread like this pretty quickly.

And you'll notice that if someone makes something and posts it, participation will end after about five posts.

 

[D_W]

DW; were you able to determine if the edge retention of pmv11 vs 01 closely matched that of Veritas's earlier claims.

Stewie;

http://www.pm-v11.com/Images/story_RadarChart.JPG

I like the chart. That's a hilarious bit of pseudo science if ever I saw one! :lol:
I've no objection to people playing the game of sharpening 'science' but it does intrude on those who just want to do woodwork. The less notice you take of the gadget sellers and the johnny-come-lately 'experts', the easier it gets!

that chart is actually a standard in picking steels for knives, so they didn't come up with it. It's also accurate, but I found the lack of data offputting, to say the least, and I won't buy most things without knowing what they are (as I'd rather make the bulk of what I use rather than buying it - even though that doesn't make money sense sometimes).

All that said, their claims are actually accurate. It hones well, wears well, lasts a long time, is incidentally stainless (actually, that's intentional based on the small market segment they're aiming at), and the cue that it wears really well shows up only in the feel on the stones (it's slick, just like it is in wood) and in the fact that on a grinding wheel, it does grind about half as fast as O1/W1 - whatever relatively plain steel someone prefers.

Still 1/10th as important as learning to sharpen quickly, though. The person who abhors sharpening on something will still do the same on another thing that lasts twice as long. In my testing, it came out of the cut, for example, at about 1700 feet in beech (depending on the piece - the next more favorable board might yield 4200 feet of planing, as seen here)....but given 1700, I would generally sharpen around 800 or 1000. For O1 that lasts to 780 (which is the figure that i mentioned before), I'd have been sharpening at 400-500. My cycle time is so short that I never really minded that and still wouldn't. If I couldn't have made the irons from the base stock that is apparently in V11, I would likely have *not* replaced most of my metallic plane irons as I have an attachment to things that I've made, and....well, the sharpening skill is still more important than the longevity.

I'm also usually looking for some aesthetic, even in tools. It doesn't have to be prissy and fantastic, but the V11 irons have the mortal sin in design - straight lines terminating in tight curves and then more straight lines, more tight curves, etc. I don't have a picture of this iron finished (though it's finished, deburred and snappy looking now with the blue long gone), but I'd prefer a tombstone design or rounded top on irons if they aren't going to be a dead stock copy of the original. LV prefers some of their buck rodgers design type elements, and I find them to be brutally honest about everything (as was the case with the durability of the chosen new steel), but I admire the honesty and not the appearance.

https://i.imgur.com/ovKJcWo.jpg

 

[Jacob]

I know I'm always repeating myself on this

Indeed Jacob...I started on UKW donkey's years ago and the mantra hasn't changed one iota :lol: :lol: - Rob

Yes has changed - I've hardened up on it, I'm much more confident now!
Actually it is under continuous review.
I bought 3 Ezelap diamond plates which do what they are supposed to but I still prefer the oil stone. What they are good for is remedial work on something a bit knackered but if I didn't have them I'd use wet n dry (wet) on a flat surface - very fast and much cheaper.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

And you'll notice that if someone makes something and posts it, participation will end after about five posts.

Point taken. Priorities.

 

[MikeG.]

.......you'll notice that if someone makes something and posts it, participation will end after about five posts.

Oooooh, I don't know

 

[Osvaldd]

@D_W
care to share a link to HSS china blades?
cheers

 

[D_W]

.......you'll notice that if someone makes something and posts it, participation will end after about five posts.

Oooooh, I don't know

You're right, this forum is better about it than most.

 

[D_W]

@D_W
care to share a link to HSS china blades?
cheers

Plane Blade Linky

The green ones, I have used quite a bit (and had four of them - I set them up and give them away sometimes). Be forewarned, they quote 60-62 hardness in one listing, but we had one tested in a versitron and the business end averaged 65. Flattening them is no joke - as they're HSS, and it's not just 65 hardness, but its 65 hardness with slick abrasion resistant carbides.

They take a great edge but can have tiny anomalies here and there. Very consistent from iron to iron except for flatness (and the lack of it is often a belly).

Best dollar for dollar iron I've ever seen, and the guy assisting me with some details while I was testing (as in, he really wanted to know what these were made of, so I said "I'll give you one and you can have it tested. I'm too lazy to do that".) He arranged getting it XRFed and it's pretty much M2, but just slightly short in some of the alloying elements, probably due to cost.

a strong performer in bad/dirty wood, too.

 

[D_W]

aside, you will find some that have black paint for $8 shipped (whatever that is in your royal dollars), and I have two of those, too, but haven't gotten them out of the pack. I suspect they're all made in the same place, but that's not confirmed.

If you remember mujingfang planes, they are suspiciously similar to the HSS irons in those!!

 

[Osvaldd]

Thanks D_W , just ordered one. wonder if there are any 60mm hss blades too? can't find any.

 

[Osvaldd]

this one says HSS, and its only £3.50
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000219 ... drXEC&mp=1

i wonder if its really HSS though...

 

[D_W]

It could be HSS, or something similar, or just mismarked "bearing steel" or some other generic term that they use.

I also got one of the thicker blades (not sure if it's the same unpainted version that's listed with the green one, but something like that) to use instead of A2 in a lie nielsen plane, and it works well, but is definitely softer than the green ones.

Some of the blades have a spec of 54-58 listed, and if the middle of that range is made, the blade will be almost unusable. The green ones say 60/62, and maybe somewhere one of them is that - so you're taking chances with all of it to some extent other than that I've never seen one of the brazed bit types have any issues other than flatness and a tiny defect pit here or there that you may need to grind past. There's not much of that, either.

When you get yours, if the slot is ever so slightly too narrow for the adjuster in your plane, they're easily filed and often have a burr that can be filed off - only the bit is hard. Not sure what the burr is in the center of the blade - perhaps they're laser cut or water cut or something.

(i don't recall seeing anything bigger than 51mm, by the way).

 

[Trevanion]

I wonder if anyone's attempted to make a tungsten carbide or stellite tipped hand plane blade.

 

[Jarno]

Have they stamped all of that lettering and logos in, or is it engraved? Is it still flat? Those narrow areas next to the cutout are the nastiest place to stamp that much lettering in, it'll turn the iron into a banana. Unless perhaps they did not press it in as deeply (and with those large letters) in real life.

 

[D_W]

Actually, the fellow here in the states that had irons XRFed and hardness tested as part of my process experimented with a bunch of stuff. He uses a plane only for trimming joints and wants one that never needs to be sharpened. Interrupted cuts and slow speed force takes the edge right off of carbide at any plane type angle, not sure about stellite (but probably without a 60 or 70 degree angle, it doesn't hold up that well - BOTH make excellent blunt scrapers if you can get them brazed to a handle, though). He also tried titanium nitride hoping to find a coating that might limit the wear on the back of a plane blade, but the coating right at the tip was quickly stripped off.

some of the toughened carbide or carbide-ish materials like stellite seem inviting, though.

not that it was asked, but I was curious before i tried PM M4 (which has a reputation for being very slow grinding, but like the V11 base material, does a good job of shedding its wire edge and taking a fine edge), why there wasn't more of it out there, but the material cost for most of those PMs (to some extent, what V11 is made of) is just really high, and then when I make an iron, it's not a big deal to not surface grind an iron - it's not needed. I bias the heat treatment to make the non-bevel side a little hollow, prepare that and then just deburr the rest of the iron. However, everyone expects a commercial iron to be ground flat on both sides, and the fellow who loaned me the M4 iron to test said that just the post heat treat surface grind for a small batch of irons was $100.

Heat treat errors come into play, too (which is why I heat treat my own in the shop). The 3V iron that I received was 59 hardness, despite the heat treater being told 61 hardness. 59 is the spec for knives, top end, to preserve toughness, so even when you request something special (there's plenty of toughness at 61 for planing), you spend mondo bucks making specialty irons and the heat treat guy is on brain default mode and makes the irons 59 because the last hundred batches of knife blanks came with a request for 59 hardness.

3V did well, but not as well as V11. It may have been much closer at 61 hardness, but it's harder to sharpen and at least as slow to grind and it is a world champion wire edge holder. 1 micron diamonds can raise a wire edge on it that's got to be alternated off and won't break off on leather sometimes.

 

[D_W]

Have they stamped all of that lettering and logos in, or is it engraved? Is it still flat? Those narrow areas next to the cutout are the nastiest place to stamp that much lettering in, it'll turn the iron into a banana. Unless perhaps they did not press it in as deeply (and with those large letters) in real life.

they're flat enough to use - I haven't had an issue.

As soon as you put any iron on a cap iron, no matter how flat the iron is, the cap iron tension is going to bend the iron some. That's something easy to check with a straight edge.

I did share the same thought as you when I saw that though - why would anyone stamp something that deep? There's no reason. All of the chinese irons that I've gotten have at least been good, some have been great. Sooner or later that streak would probably come to an end, though - i've got so many irons that I don't need to buy more to see how long it will last.

 

[Trevanion]

How about Polycrystalline Diamond or Cubic Boron Nitride tipped plane blades? :-k