Dust Extraction Solution Adviceq

[ByronBlack]

Now that I have el-rusto working, a router table near completion, and a bandsaw next on my list. I think it's time to start planning a dust extraction solution. However, I know very little about all the ins and outs of plumbing, blast gates, etc.. so wanted to get a little help from you guy's.

After doing a search and reading some bits and bobs on this forum i've decided on the following:

It will need to have a number of machines connected via a dedicated piped in system. The main machines for this will be the P/T, Router Table (2 ports) and a bandsaw. All will have 100mm outlets.

I have a trend AF that i'll use for small power-tools and the festool.

The extractor can be located in a small shed outside of the workshop (on the back of it). How much space is required around an extractor?

The pipework will be about 10m or so (5m on each side of the shop) from the extractor to the machines.

I need some kind of remote control/takeoff facility - not sure how this works out.

I have a budget of about £200.

So, based on that, is it do-able for the budget, what would I need interms of pipework hardware, and what are your recommendations?

Any help would be appreciated on this, although i'm not looking to install this until the next months paycheck. I would like to get this right from the outset so that I can have a nice clean workshop rather than my usual short-term solutions.

And finally, in the meantime of installing this system, would something like a Triton Dust Collector bin connected up to my Trend AF be good enough to extract for the P/T?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[stevel]

Hi Byron,

I've got a SIP chip extractor which works well with my P/T and Ts. I think that if you have it outside you can use the normal top bag which gives a pretty good air flow since you wont be worring about dust in the atmosphere. The cost would certainly fit your budget. Personally I use a record for my router table and band saw to collect the finer dust and use the fine filter bag on my SIP. I use only short runs of tubing to increase airflow, at most 1500 cm from each machine. good luck equiping your workshop.

Steve

 

[Inspector]

Since you are still in the planing stages and open to suggestions consider making your ducts out of wood rather than metal or plastic piping.

If you can get cheap wood or sheet stock fabricate a long box (with corner blocks if you want to "round" the insides) and attach it at the ceiling like a cornice or midway up the wall. The duct run is short so the efficiency won't be much worse than round. Midway mounting will also give you a shelf to store tools, chargers, and can serve as the base for sitting small cabinets on. A large radius sweep can be made of bandsawn sheet stock with thinner (1/8 to 1/4 plywood) bent and glued to the inside and outside curves. Machine connections to the duct can have a hole where needed and sliding plate with attached hose (angled at 45 degrees) to serve as an integrated blast gate.

I suspect (but don't have proof) that wood ducting will be both quieter in use as it will absorb sound vibrations, and not be prone to building up static electricity. If done right it would look better than traditional ductwork and if you have luck scrounging might be cheaper too. You could put in the main runs now and then add the extractor and filters later, which should be done in any case, before the entire shop is full of obstacles (tools and racks).

Before I forget, the large diameter cardboard (and sometimes plastic) tubes that carpets come on, and the spools from the fabric that Tent and Awning Companies use, can be made into ducts and are sometimes free for the asking . Naturally glue and duct tape hold them together.

More to think on. :?

 

[Pecker]

I really admire Inspectors way of saving money, but am worried about the practicalities.

1) 10 - 15 mtrs is a longish run. Check the Charnwood website and you'll see their basic - midrange machines are only recomended for upto 10mtrs. SIP are about the same when I spoke to them last year.

2) Wood ducting would take up more space.

3) You would need to ensure minimal air leakage which might be difficult using wood.

3) Airflow needs as smooth a transit as possible, wood being rough will not help that, and from very personal experience when I built a 90 degree bend out of ply for a duct through a wall, dust caught up on it and eventually clogged it when using the P/T.

I need about the same length for my "professional" workshop, and on speaking to Axminster they would only recomend their industrial range due to pressure loss.

"Personally" if you do go down that route I would use 4" soil pipe - but do earth it well to avoid static build up which is a real possibilty over that length.

Having said all that, I once put took the fan unit off an SIP extractor attached it to a wall at the end of about 9mtr run of ducting, fed it into an old oil drum and it worked ruddy well for the P/T - except for an occasional blockage as mentioned above.

Woody

 

[Adam]

I have a budget of about £200.
.

Does that include pipework? If so be warned its expensive! Start looking in builder skips for offcuts of 110mm pipe if you go that route.

Secondly, building a small "outhouse" - it doesn't need much excess at all. Although bear in mind you may change extractor, and work out how you will pull it in and out to change the bag - will you disconnect the pipe.

Not really "remote" switch on, but someone mentioned having a bathroom pullcord (like a shower one) for switching the extractor on and off!

Adam

 

[Roy Clarke]

This will probably hurt a bit, but £200 is almost not worth spending on dust extraction. Chip collection will be ok, but the dangerous fine stuff will not get trapped properly. Beware of manufacturers claims. You would be better saving up for something proper unless you can discharge outside. http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/Index.cfm is a good reference. It will take days to read,(literally!) but at least you will be armed with good info. If you can go to 6" duct, and modify the collection the machines that would be better. a 4" pipe as fitted plus some additional collection in the right place is better.

 

[ByronBlack]

I'm even more confused now!! Isn't that always the way. After reading the Pentz site I'm convinced I need a cyclone, but do I really? Its so hard to make judgements on these things.

On one hand I agree with a lot of what he says, and the clearvue cyclones seem like a good solution. But the expense is large!

What does everyone else do that doesn't have a cyclone system - does everyone suffer health problems from occasional use? What other alternatives are there? Pentz site offers no possible alternatives - is this subjective or gospel?

I'm really stuck now - I just want to get on with woodworking, but then, I don't want to endanger my health, it's a minefield to determine what exactly is needed for a small workshop.

It seems to me that the key thing is capturing the fine dust to begin with and exhausting it outside. I'm quite happy to build an outhouse and drag teh dust outside - do a I need a cyclone for that?

Is it good practice to up the 4" outlets to 6" outlets or is that defeating the object, in which case where does that leave me with regards the machines 4" outlets..

 

[davy_owen_88]

To summarise, you don't NEED a cyclone. You NEED a dust extractor that can catch and filter the finest dust (<0.5 microns). This means an extractor with good filters and high airflow.

The reason Pentz suggests a cyclone is because without them the filters clog quicker which reduces airflow and therefore reduces the amount of fine dust the extractor is capable of catching.

Not everyone suffers badly from the dust, but it has been proven that "dust is bad mmmkay..." and the less you inhale the better off your lungs are for it.

 

[ByronBlack]

Davy Owen - thanks for that. So, what would you suggest is a good enough machine to extract the fine dust on a 4" outlet? Does the fact that i'll be keeping the extractor outside help matters or does that not really have an effect?

I've had a quick look on the axminster and found this Jet unit:
http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Jet- ... 362369.htm

Apparently that goes down to 0.2 micron - am I right in my thinking (based on your advice) that it'll be fine to use, but the filters will clog quicker and require cleaning often to maintain the air-flow - as compared to a cyclone system. In which case, how often do the filters need cleaning, and more importantly how would you go about cleaning a filter without then breathing in/launching fine dust into the air?

 

[Roy Clarke]

The jet machine has a 735 watt motor, to shift dust fast enough from a tablesaw or reasonable bandsaw you would need to look at 800cfm. 735W cannot shift the air. The filter may filter to 0.2 micron, but not at much airflow as it hasn't got much surface area. This is the problem with manufacturers claims.

If you could shroud your machines in the way the commercial factory machines are now made, that would help. Or use other methods, or use collection hoods to grab the dust as soon as it is made, or (seriously) work outside where possible.

I have the ends of my shed covered by windbreak netting from the garden centre, so the air can move right through. It's not been too bad this winter, but last winter was evil. :shock:

I built a mini-cyclone which is fairly good, but not for large machines.

 

[Jake]

BB, if you have your extractor outside, you don't need fine filters (or want them, as they'll reduce through flow with no upside to you) and you don't need a cyclone (as their only purpose is to stop fine filters from clogging up).

The only relevance of those two is if you are recirculating the extract air into your workshop.

The downside is losing your warm air.

 

[ByronBlack]

Jake - so if I gather this correctly, if I have it outside then my main criteria should be power(air flow) and capacity as I don't need to worry about the dust issue. However, i'm assuming that the little shed the extractor will be housed in will be greatly filled with this fine dust - will I need to include some form of exhaustion to remove it?

Sorry for all these questions, i've avoiding looking into dust extraction for as long as i've dared, but need to get something sorted before I move any further with the workshop.

 

[Jake]

Yes, exactly. You won't need to worry about the fine dust in your little add-on shed too much. You'll have to give the top bag the odd bashing to keep it unclogged, and maybe hoover out the compartment now and then of fine dust. It's very good at getting everywhere and into lungs, but there isn't very much of it - the coarse filter catches the vast majority of the dust by volume, just not the small particles.

It's the cheapest and most effective solution - no fine filter, cycloned or not, can be quite as effective as not recirculating at all.

Buy some jumpers for the winter!

 

[davy_owen_88]

I use this with 2 of these.

The filters give a higher flow rate due to the increase in surface area and they filter down to 0.5 microns. If you are keeping the extractor outside then the standard filters are more than sufficient, but remember to tap them down regularly to keep the flow rate up.

 

[ByronBlack]

Cheers fella's, I think i've got enough info now to go and search out for some options.

Davy - the axminster one, will that be good enough to run a P/T, RouterTable, and Bandsaw (not all at once though) using blast gates?

Also, you use 2 of the fine filter thingme-bobs - is that one on the bottom and one on the top? If so, where does the chippings/dust go? Sorry I am really quite clueless!

 

[Escudo]

What ho BB,

I would have a look at the CAMVAC site. I have the small machine in a cupboard attached to my shed.

The ducting pipes 2.5" come through the shed wall and are plumbed around the shed to service my bandsaw, planner and chopsaw. I can also fit a flexible hoover type attachment for general cleaning up round my bench etc.

I also have the microclene mc500 machine to pick up the small particles.
This is on a shelf in the roof space. I often leave this on boost setting when I am having lunch or nipping out, as it filters all the air space in a few hours.

The benefit of having the machine outside is two fold, firstly to reduce noise they are very noisy machines and secondly to save space.

On refection I spent about £500 setting the system up but it is a joy not to have to keep clearing up dust and chips etc., not to mention the health advantages. (Setting a side that I like smoking my trusty old pipe whilst I'm working )

Hope this helps. Esc.

 

[davy_owen_88]

I have a plastic sack on the bottom and the 2 filters stacked on top. I had to dismantle the cart it comes on to get both ontop because of low ceiling heights but you might be ok with your new 'shop.

It has plenty of capacity for every tool likely to be in a hobby workshop. With gates you'll be fine.

 

[ByronBlack]

esc - I was looking at the Camvac's last night as it happens, they do seem to be quite a decent outfit, although I would have to go for the 4" outlet.

Davy - thanks for the reassurance on that one, it'll give me another option to consider. Should I use metal plumbed-in ducting, or just have the plastic pipes - not sure of the pro's and con's on that one.

 

[Jake]

I seriously wouldn't bother with fine filters - they would be a waste of money with an external set up. I'd cut a hole through your wall into the dust extractor compartment so you can give the bag a whack with a stick now and then from inside, instead. That way you'll keep your through flow up, but save yourself £100+.

I wouldn't get a Camvac either, even though I have one and like it for my purposes. It's main benefits are that truely fine filtering comes as standard, it doesn't suffer from clogging of those fine filters to anything like the extent of a normal chip extractor, and it is compact. As you effectively don't have to care about fine dust filtering, it would be a waste of money - they are very expensive comparatively in terms of extraction capacity.

The only other advantage they have is that they don't suffer from through-flow losses from small ports or ducting anything like a low pressure device, but on the other hand you have to pay more in the first place for a given amount of throughflow.

 

[OLD]

100mm pipe plumbing is expensive i have one outlet adj. to the double doors ( to get the max board length )with long flex to connect to p/t bandsaw and norms router table all are on casters . I use the SIP extractor in a separate external enclosure short pipe run, which is sized to allow for the extra flex to empty the m/c with a suitable vent to stop pressurization. The extractor has fabric bags top and bottom nvr switch removed and controlled from adj. the double doors.
nvr switch is used in the router table with no problems.
I use CCL pipe and flex but you get a length of flex with SIP extractor.