Approximately 6.5m x 4m. Enough room for a reasonable size unit but do have various things that restrict space like tables and storage.
Dust extraction, am i over thinking this? Advice please.
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Recky33
Established Member
I would go for a 3 motor Camvac type and 4" hard pipe it to all fixed machines, only use flexy for the last few inches, cyclone right next to Camvac, pipe layout will be the problem if your thinking about it being put in the middle unless you can go up, if you don,t go hard pipe there's enough suction pressure in flexy to pull the cyclone over, don't ask me how I know 
Reffc
Established Member
I simply use an HPA1000 Scheppach unit combined with a workshop air filter (Record AC400) and a Class M Trend dust extractor for portable tools. It does a great job but just doesn't have as much air flow as a HVLP system. Most bench saws are supplied with 100mm exhaust ports sand if the OP doesn't have one, perhaps your table can have the port changed as it's pretty essential on a bench saw as they do kick out a lot of dust. My router table has a 3 inch port but I use a step down off my 100mm hose for this. For everything else I use the Class M extractor (biscuit jointer, hand routers, sanders etc). The Scheppach dust extractor needs emptying every week or two and fills a large bin bag with each empty so is extracting a lot of dust. The AC400 unit does a great job of cleaning up the air despite some current youtube vloggers claiming they're rubbish...I can assure you that they're not. You want to see what the filter sucks up every day..the sort of fine dust which otherwise ends up in your lungs! Absolutely an essential which I would not do without having seen how effective they are. Of course they cannot pick up everything but they do get the amount in the air down significantly. Mine does at least 4 complete workshop air volume changes an hour. If I had the space, I'd be running two of them.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Over thinking!
Dust bags on hand power machines - or for a longer job connect direct to Trend T30 which has nice long hose and flex so you don't have to move it about. It also works as a hoover with pipe and attachments
Combi machine an Axminster ADE 2200 with 4" pipe.
It also works as air extractor if you leave it running for a bit - it's not graded for fine dust but it will extract finer as the bags get clogged up slowly.
Band saw and morticer don't need anything, unless I did MDF.
Mask with anything horrid like Iroko
Dust bags on hand power machines - or for a longer job connect direct to Trend T30 which has nice long hose and flex so you don't have to move it about. It also works as a hoover with pipe and attachments
Combi machine an Axminster ADE 2200 with 4" pipe.
It also works as air extractor if you leave it running for a bit - it's not graded for fine dust but it will extract finer as the bags get clogged up slowly.
Band saw and morticer don't need anything, unless I did MDF.
Mask with anything horrid like Iroko
Reffc
Established Member
Overthinking? Not at all! The Trend T35 IS the Class M unit in question! The ADE220 is a good unit but not everyone has the room for one hence the bin type extractors work well enough...a simple enough solution which combined with a decent air filter works well without breaking the bank.
Funnily enough this is exactly one of the setups that i was considering, with the possible addition of a bin lid separator next to the cyclone to keep bigger shavings separate to the finer stuff. I was thinking central to the tools rather than centre of the room , so piping/ducting shouldn't be an issue.I would go for a 3 motor Camvac type and 4" hard pipe it to all fixed machines, only use flexy for the last few inches, cyclone right next to Camvac, pipe layout will be the problem if your thinking about it being put in the middle unless you can go up, if you don,t go hard pipe there's enough suction pressure in flexy to pull the cyclone over, don't ask me how I know
Here's where the science and real world outcomes clash as it seems that this setup works for you yet the science suggests it shouldn't! The triple motor specs about 500 odd m3/h and if i have read Siggy's thread correctly then that should just about be enough to keep particles suspended in the airflow through 100mm piping, then add in restrictions at the machine and additions such as cyclones and in theory it shouldn't work. You can see my confusion! What tools have you got attached to your system? Does it handle a P/T?
One other concern about the cam vac is; because of the type of motor they use, if the airflow drops too much below spec is there a chance of the motor overheating during prolonged use?
Thanks, Dave.
You're right about the ac400, i have one and its surprising how much dust ends up over the filter! I use my makita vac for most of my tools and it does a great job just not suited to every tool, but i believe a vac should definitely be part of the dust extraction system just as you're doing. I like the idea of modifying port size as a possible way forward. My thicknesser and tables both have smaller ports at around 67mm and 57mm respectively. Id be interested to hear about the idea i suggested earlier about venting ports to make up for the restriction, if any body has tried similar or has any thoughts.
Recky33
Established Member
I have a Camvac and a really old Festool vac, the Festool is only ever used on a tracksaw and hand routing, both with separate cyclones, I'm a bit pushed for space so use a Triton benchtop PT the Camvac sorts this out using 2 motors, same with a small Dewalt table saw, Router table is 4" Camvac with the port on the bottom, so lets gravity do it's thing, bandsaw I have given up on
They don't do this model anymore but looking at the specs they have similar models. I have been looking at the axminster models and their workshop models seem better suited than their professional range(I realise the professional range are built to last longer). Thanks.
Inspector
Nyuck, Nyuck, Nyuck!
You said you will wear a mask when working but to know when the dust levels have come down to a see level I suggest you look for a cheap particle counter. Taking a reading outside will give you an indication of what the air should be close to. Don't put them close to the dust maker as that will overwhelm and clog the sensor, killing it. Set it on a shelf at head height near you.
About using multiple separators in line. Don't! The "If one is good, more must be better!" thinking is the opposite of what you want. Everything before the collector reduces the flow, more so for a high volume low pressure system, leaving you will less suction. A well designed cyclone reduces the flow through internal drag by about 2 inches of water (you can do the conversions if you like) and as much as 5 inches. A separator lid is worse and adding the two will likely kill the flow to make it ineffective.
In an HVLP system hoses have as much as triple the drag as smooth duct especially when a longer length is chosen to cover more machines and it remains coiled and snaked across the floor.
A HVLP system relies on flow to capture dust so choking down duct sizes kills their effectiveness the smaller you go. They have low static pressures, usually 8 or so inches max with a small DC. They are not like a vacuum cleaner type that has static pressures as high as 160" which overcome restrictions but do not have high flow rates. Generally with a HVLP DC a 4" duct flows a around 400CFM, a 5"duct flows 800CFM and a 6" duct flows 1250CFM. Those are assuming your DC has the grunt to pull that much airflow.
DC impellers are rated without any ductwork or filters etc on them. Just a very short test duct on the intake and a single reading in the middle of the airstream is taken where the flow is the highest. How much extra is added for sales and advertising is up to the manufacturer. When the bags, cartridges, connecting fittings, attachments etc are added on you can expect the real world flows to be half of what is on the nameplate. Also many of the Asian made machines use the flows obtained when testing at 60 hertz for the US market.
For your circumstances I would suggest one of the 3 motor CamVac type machines with a Dust Deputy type cyclone with 4" intake/outlet ports. They, because of their higher static pressure, can be necked down some for smaller tools and still work. Keeping an extra port open to allow full flow through the cyclone will keep the separation optimized. Exterior venting will keep the shop cleaner and reduce the noise as long as neighbours are not close. Otherwise they make a lot of noise instead.
Pete
About using multiple separators in line. Don't! The "If one is good, more must be better!" thinking is the opposite of what you want. Everything before the collector reduces the flow, more so for a high volume low pressure system, leaving you will less suction. A well designed cyclone reduces the flow through internal drag by about 2 inches of water (you can do the conversions if you like) and as much as 5 inches. A separator lid is worse and adding the two will likely kill the flow to make it ineffective.
In an HVLP system hoses have as much as triple the drag as smooth duct especially when a longer length is chosen to cover more machines and it remains coiled and snaked across the floor.
A HVLP system relies on flow to capture dust so choking down duct sizes kills their effectiveness the smaller you go. They have low static pressures, usually 8 or so inches max with a small DC. They are not like a vacuum cleaner type that has static pressures as high as 160" which overcome restrictions but do not have high flow rates. Generally with a HVLP DC a 4" duct flows a around 400CFM, a 5"duct flows 800CFM and a 6" duct flows 1250CFM. Those are assuming your DC has the grunt to pull that much airflow.
DC impellers are rated without any ductwork or filters etc on them. Just a very short test duct on the intake and a single reading in the middle of the airstream is taken where the flow is the highest. How much extra is added for sales and advertising is up to the manufacturer. When the bags, cartridges, connecting fittings, attachments etc are added on you can expect the real world flows to be half of what is on the nameplate. Also many of the Asian made machines use the flows obtained when testing at 60 hertz for the US market.
For your circumstances I would suggest one of the 3 motor CamVac type machines with a Dust Deputy type cyclone with 4" intake/outlet ports. They, because of their higher static pressure, can be necked down some for smaller tools and still work. Keeping an extra port open to allow full flow through the cyclone will keep the separation optimized. Exterior venting will keep the shop cleaner and reduce the noise as long as neighbours are not close. Otherwise they make a lot of noise instead.
Pete
Hmm, Brian 1-0 the newbie, well played and i will take it with the good humour that I'm sure it was meant.
I'm not upset by the joke so please don't see this as a snappy response, but i think i might need to clarify some points:
Just to be clear to anyone who has taken the time to read this thread, it may have appeared that i am looking for the perfect system and a surgically clean workshop. Thats not what i'm looking for nor am i naive enough to believe that that's possible(outside of a government facility
).When so many figures are thrown around by manufacturers it is nice to understand what they really mean and how they translate into the real world. Surely it's reasonable to want to understand them as they must have some significance. The trouble is that sometimes those figures are inflated to sell a product or at least taken out of context to real world figures.
Take the cam vac that has been mentioned here a few times already. Initially i was put off by the lower air flow compared to impeller style extractors. Now put these two into a real world scenario and it seems that the cam vac(essentially a glorified shop vac) maintains flow rate through ducting, bends, restrictions and ultimately retains a higher % at the point of the tool, whereas the supposedly higher rated impeller style extractors start to dramatically decrease their flow rate as soon as you add ducting to them or any sort of obstruction(bends, choke points), ultimately maybe having less flow at the point of the tool than the cam vac does.
How many times has someone bought something that looks fit for purpose on paper but disappoints in real world use. We all have our own ways of finding what's right for us, i like to research and take the opportunity to broaden my knowledge at the same time. This is not a dig at anyone.
Thanks Pete, this makes a lot of sense and also confirms some of my own interpretations. Right now that cam vac is looking very promising. Unfortunately external venting isn't an option but I've seen an interesting idea on youtube for making a silencing box for the cam vac.You said you will wear a mask when working but to know when the dust levels have come down to a see level I suggest you look for a cheap particle counter. Taking a reading outside will give you an indication of what the air should be close to. Don't put them close to the dust maker as that will overwhelm and clog the sensor, killing it. Set it on a shelf at head height near you.
About using multiple separators in line. Don't! The "If one is good, more must be better!" thinking is the opposite of what you want. Everything before the collector reduces the flow, more so for a high volume low pressure system, leaving you will less suction. A well designed cyclone reduces the flow through internal drag by about 2 inches of water (you can do the conversions if you like) and as much as 5 inches. A separator lid is worse and adding the two will likely kill the flow to make it ineffective.
In an HVLP system hoses have as much as triple the drag as smooth duct especially when a longer length is chosen to cover more machines and it remains coiled and snaked across the floor.
A HVLP system relies on flow to capture dust so choking down duct sizes kills their effectiveness the smaller you go. They have low static pressures, usually 8 or so inches max with a small DC. They are not like a vacuum cleaner type that has static pressures as high as 160" which overcome restrictions but do not have high flow rates. Generally with a HVLP DC a 4" duct flows a around 400CFM, a 5"duct flows 800CFM and a 6" duct flows 1250CFM. Those are assuming your DC has the grunt to pull that much airflow.
DC impellers are rated without any ductwork or filters etc on them. Just a very short test duct on the intake and a single reading in the middle of the airstream is taken where the flow is the highest. How much extra is added for sales and advertising is up to the manufacturer. When the bags, cartridges, connecting fittings, attachments etc are added on you can expect the real world flows to be half of what is on the nameplate. Also many of the Asian made machines use the flows obtained when testing at 60 hertz for the US market.
For your circumstances I would suggest one of the 3 motor CamVac type machines with a Dust Deputy type cyclone with 4" intake/outlet ports. They, because of their higher static pressure, can be necked down some for smaller tools and still work. Keeping an extra port open to allow full flow through the cyclone will keep the separation optimized. Exterior venting will keep the shop cleaner and reduce the noise as long as neighbours are not close. Otherwise they make a lot of noise instead.
Pete
Here is a copy and paste from the sticky on here by member siggy that i keep referring to:
"One final point on system performance – if the air moves too slowly in your hoses and ducts, then the dust can fall out of suspension in the air stream and lead to blockages. Aim for a flow speed of at least 20m/s to avoid this. This corresponds to 225m3/h for 63mm pipe, 565m3/h for 100mm pipe and 883m3/h for 125mm pipe. If using a HPLV extractor, then blockages shouldn’t develop because the stall pressure is high enough to clear them, so you can treat this requirement a little more loosely."
Am i right in thinking that the cam vac overcomes this problem by having a high stall pressure? The stated flow rate of that cam vac is 162litres/min which converts to 583 m3/h. I would consider the cam vac as a bit of a hybrid, whereas before i had thought of it as a HVLP.
Inspector
Nyuck, Nyuck, Nyuck!
Forgive me if I don't convert all the numbers so I can relate to them better. I'm a few days into Covid and thinking a little slow at times. Whine over. The CamVan is a glorified/overgrown vacuum cleaner so it is a low volume high pressure machine, all be it a big one. It can because of there high static pressure overcome ductwork issues better than a HVLP does. So collecting from a single machine with 100mm or less ports works reasonable well. The limits of capture being the volume of air needed to get the fines, the smaller DC's and shop vacs just don't have those volumes. You need to step up in size to ones that will draw 1000CFM at the machine through 6" ducts and that isn't common or practical for most of you. That's why I suggested the particle counter and wearing a mask until you know it is safe.
We all have different reactions to dust and some can work their entire life in it up to their eyeballs and not be bothered. Others get a whiff and are clogged up for days. I fall in the later group so wear the mask and are heading in the 5hp cyclone direction with big ducts. I have the room to though.
Pete
We all have different reactions to dust and some can work their entire life in it up to their eyeballs and not be bothered. Others get a whiff and are clogged up for days. I fall in the later group so wear the mask and are heading in the 5hp cyclone direction with big ducts. I have the room to though.
Pete
Sorry to hear you have COVID, wishing you a speedy recovery.
This clarifies things for me further and has certainly helped me gain a better understanding. By fines, are you talking very fine like sanding and MDF? By what you’re saying that’s a problem for most small workshops anyway, so not losing too much by choosing camvac over a HVLP.
I will certainly consider the particle counter. I hadn’t realised they were readily available or cheap to come by. Like yourself I tend to react to a bit of dust.
Looks like I’ll be ordering a camvac soon!
Regards, Dave
thetyreman
Established Member
you should have a mask, vaccum at the source be that a machine like an orbital sander or bandsaw and then an ambient dust extractor for the really fine dust.
Jameshow
Established Member
Be careful of those machines where the filter is in the same place as the collection they soon bog up. Better to have separation of the solids not in filter zone!
Like the big hvlp with a filter bag above and a collection bag below.
Inspector
Nyuck, Nyuck, Nyuck!
Fine dust is the 10 micron and smaller dust made when cutting or sanding any wood or wood product. Every machine makes it to one extent or another and even some hand woodworking operations produce it. It is not normally seen with the naked eye unless it is by reflecting in light. Floating in front of a window in a beam of sunlight or at an angle from a strong flashlight for examples. Fine dust can float in the air for many hours before settling out on horizontal surfaces and can be kicked up to float again with activities or air movement.
Collection at source is the best solution but you need a powerful system for that. The second solution is to ventilation to the outside with makeup air free to come in from the opposite side of the room. That removes a lot of heat so not a solution for everyone. The distant third solution is have a room air filter to get it when it escapes but it can take hours of air scrubbing after the work to bring the dust levels down to safe levels. Ideally you would want at least 10 air changes per hour but 20 is preferred for both ventilation and filtration. Something to understand that while a filter may say it filters so many measures of air per minute or hour with each pass of the air through you are only cleaning half the air in the room as it doesn't all go through with each pass. For example if the filter's data plate says it will do the volume of air in your shop in 10 minutes implying 5 air changes in an hour it actually takes much longer. Half the room in the first 10 minutes, a quarter of the dust will come out in the second 10 minutes, one eighth of the dust filtered out in the next 10 minutes and so on. That first half hour has actually removed 7/8 of the dust and each pass is nibbling away at what is left. Room size, volume rating, room shape and placement of the filter all affect how effective the air cleaner will be.
My buddy near Vancouver BC only has a DC on his double drum sander and even when using it he does the same as when doing any dust making in his 20'x20'x10' shop. Opens two 2'x3' sliding windows, personal door and the double roll up door about 3'. He wears a full face cartridge mask. When done goes outside and dusts himself off with a low pressure air hose and goes back inside and does other stuff for about half an hour before he takes it off and closes up. He has wood heat so the room comes back up to temperature quickly. As it isn't below zero there very often or long so it works just fine for him. His climate is more like yours. Too cold for too long here for me to do that.
While dust collection would be nice if there was a set of questions you answer that would give you the amount of collection you needed. Unfortunately people don't all have the same needs, susceptibility to dust, shop size, climate, volume of dust produced, machines being used etc. You only have to look at table saws to see there are no standards being applied except in industry. You can get a 10" job site saw that will have a 2 1/2" port under the saw and nothing above compared to an industrial that has a 5" port under the saw and 2 1/2" over the blade and they both use the same blade and cut the same material. Yet the seller of the little saw will tell you that is all you need. There is a lot to wade through and choices to work out.
If you haven't read it already Dust Collection Research - Home has the reasons etc. As I have said before it is a hard repetitive read but the information is good.
Pete
Editing to add a picture of a thicknesser I have cutting oak that shows how much fine dust it makes. People claim thicknessers don't make fine dust, just mostly shavings. Blades are sharp by the way.
Collection at source is the best solution but you need a powerful system for that. The second solution is to ventilation to the outside with makeup air free to come in from the opposite side of the room. That removes a lot of heat so not a solution for everyone. The distant third solution is have a room air filter to get it when it escapes but it can take hours of air scrubbing after the work to bring the dust levels down to safe levels. Ideally you would want at least 10 air changes per hour but 20 is preferred for both ventilation and filtration. Something to understand that while a filter may say it filters so many measures of air per minute or hour with each pass of the air through you are only cleaning half the air in the room as it doesn't all go through with each pass. For example if the filter's data plate says it will do the volume of air in your shop in 10 minutes implying 5 air changes in an hour it actually takes much longer. Half the room in the first 10 minutes, a quarter of the dust will come out in the second 10 minutes, one eighth of the dust filtered out in the next 10 minutes and so on. That first half hour has actually removed 7/8 of the dust and each pass is nibbling away at what is left. Room size, volume rating, room shape and placement of the filter all affect how effective the air cleaner will be.
My buddy near Vancouver BC only has a DC on his double drum sander and even when using it he does the same as when doing any dust making in his 20'x20'x10' shop. Opens two 2'x3' sliding windows, personal door and the double roll up door about 3'. He wears a full face cartridge mask. When done goes outside and dusts himself off with a low pressure air hose and goes back inside and does other stuff for about half an hour before he takes it off and closes up. He has wood heat so the room comes back up to temperature quickly. As it isn't below zero there very often or long so it works just fine for him. His climate is more like yours. Too cold for too long here for me to do that.
While dust collection would be nice if there was a set of questions you answer that would give you the amount of collection you needed. Unfortunately people don't all have the same needs, susceptibility to dust, shop size, climate, volume of dust produced, machines being used etc. You only have to look at table saws to see there are no standards being applied except in industry. You can get a 10" job site saw that will have a 2 1/2" port under the saw and nothing above compared to an industrial that has a 5" port under the saw and 2 1/2" over the blade and they both use the same blade and cut the same material. Yet the seller of the little saw will tell you that is all you need. There is a lot to wade through and choices to work out.
If you haven't read it already Dust Collection Research - Home has the reasons etc. As I have said before it is a hard repetitive read but the information is good.
Pete
Editing to add a picture of a thicknesser I have cutting oak that shows how much fine dust it makes. People claim thicknessers don't make fine dust, just mostly shavings. Blades are sharp by the way.
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Cheers. I’m planning to put a separator before the extractor, probably a cyclone. Hopefully that will reduce the frequency that I have to clean the filter. It is one aspect of the extractor that I’m not so keen on but I have to compromise a little I suppose.
I have an air cleaner(ac400) which I seem to have found a good location for. I’m tempted to add another one though to the other side of the room. They’re relatively cheap so it’s an option worth considering. I treat these as more of an added bonus to dust extraction though, as you rightly mention they spend a lot of time moving dusty air around all the while you could be breathing it. I make sure to wear a mask and often keep it on until I actually leave the workshop. A nice powered full face mask would be a nice addition though!
I can ventilate my workshop both ends and it does make a big difference, but as you say it’s not practical all the time.
I will have a look at the link you provided, not sure if I’ve read that one already. I think I now have a good idea what way I’m going to go. I certainly feel like I understand things better now. I may still experiment a bit with the system but I’m fairly confident that the camvac and cyclone combo will give a good starting point to my ‘at source’ extraction needs. Thanks very much for your input.
Regards, Dave
I was using a Festool CTL 26 with a HEPA filter for power tools and a Midi for the mitre saw. The CTL 26 wasn’t getting everything from the router table.
I’ve recently bought a bandsaw and decided to get a decent extractor. I went for the Axi AW153E and the optional fine filter. Really pleased with it. Lots of airflow for a reasonable price on a 13A plug. I have an Incra clean sweep box and the clean sweep router plates and the extractor is getting everything and the clean sweep box has no dust in it. Very pleased with it.
I’ve recently bought a bandsaw and decided to get a decent extractor. I went for the Axi AW153E and the optional fine filter. Really pleased with it. Lots of airflow for a reasonable price on a 13A plug. I have an Incra clean sweep box and the clean sweep router plates and the extractor is getting everything and the clean sweep box has no dust in it. Very pleased with it.
