Dust extraction, am i over thinking this? Advice please.

[Quercus]

Hi. Ive read many posts on here about dust extraction including the sticky by member Siggy, and the more i learn the more i realise there is to know! I take dust seriously and make sure to wear a mask and use an air filter as well as using a shop vac for direct extraction. This has worked well for me but as my tool collection grows so does my need for more efficient dust extraction. I would really appreciate some advice on what sort of extraction i need and setup options. I realise this is a subject that comes up a lot and i have tried to get my head around it with my own research but i'm struggling with this one.

I will try to describe my needs as best i can but if any further info is needed please let me know. For reference the shop vac i'm using is a Makita VC3012M(specs say: Max sealed suction 23-25kPa, Max airflow 3.2-3.7m3/min, input wattage 1200w). My workshop is about 6.5m x 4m and i would have the dust extraction fairly central to the tools to limit the amount of ducting/bends for better performance.

Asides from the tools that only require a shop vac(hand held power tools, mitre saw, etc), here are the main tools i'd like to improve dust extraction for:

Thicknesser, Makita 2012NB. Ive never attempted to attach the shop vac to this. 75mm O.D port.(a clear space and dustpan and brush have been the method for this, not ideal!)

Tables saw, Makita 2704B. I run the shop vac from the rear port with reasonable results, although i would like better so i can run the vac on the crown guard to improve collection. 63mm O.D port at rear

I'm wanting to add a clean sweep style box to my router table build, so that would be a 100mm port

I'm seriously considering a Sabre 350 bandsaw very soon which would also have a 100mm port

My understanding was always that a HVLP system would be best for these but reading through it looks like the smaller ports of the thicknesser and table saw aren't ideal for HVLP and I've seen LVHP suggested for these using larger hose diameters than the usual 32mm 38mm types. Ideally i would like to have these on the HVLP system. My shop vac has an attachment point of about 52mm I.D so in theory i could run a bigger hose from it if such a part exists(not seen one, and also wonder if it would be harmful to the vac in any way?)

Ive seen people quoting minimum air flow requirements for their tools but i haven't been able to source that information for mine so not sure what spec extraction i would need. Factor in the fact that i would like to use chip and dust separators as well so i would need a higher spec to account for the losses that these would create.

On the subject of separators, i was originally thinking of a cyclone type but as that would remove chip and dust together i was thinking about a bin lid type before the cyclone to remove the chip and allow the dust to continue on to the cyclone to be removed there, would that idea work in practice? I would like to separate the dust and chip as much as possible as well as preventing as much debris as possible getting back to the extractor for fewer filter cleans/replacements.

If you're still reading this, thank you, i know there are a lot of points to cover in this and i may need to expand on them as the thread progresses but i appreciate any offerings and personal experiences.

Many thanks, Dave.

 

[Fitzroy]

Hi. Ive read many posts on here about dust extraction including the sticky by member Siggy, and the more i learn the more i realise there is to know! I take dust seriously and make sure to wear a mask and use an air filter as well as using a shop vac for direct extraction. This has worked well for me but as my tool collection grows so does my need for more efficient dust extraction. I would really appreciate some advice on what sort of extraction i need and setup options. I realise this is a subject that comes up a lot and i have tried to get my head around it with my own research but i'm struggling with this one.

I will try to describe my needs as best i can but if any further info is needed please let me know. For reference the shop vac i'm using is a Makita VC3012M(specs say: Max sealed suction 23-25kPa, Max airflow 3.2-3.7m3/min, input wattage 1200w). My workshop is about 6.5m x 4m and i would have the dust extraction fairly central to the tools to limit the amount of ducting/bends for better performance.

Asides from the tools that only require a shop vac(hand held power tools, mitre saw, etc), here are the main tools i'd like to improve dust extraction for:

Thicknesser, Makita 2012NB. Ive never attempted to attach the shop vac to this. 75mm O.D port.(a clear space and dustpan and brush have been the method for this, not ideal!)

Tables saw, Makita 2704B. I run the shop vac from the rear port with reasonable results, although i would like better so i can run the vac on the crown guard to improve collection. 63mm O.D port at rear

I'm wanting to add a clean sweep style box to my router table build, so that would be a 100mm port

I'm seriously considering a Sabre 350 bandsaw very soon which would also have a 100mm port

My understanding was always that a HVLP system would be best for these but reading through it looks like the smaller ports of the thicknesser and table saw aren't ideal for HVLP and I've seen LVHP suggested for these using larger hose diameters than the usual 32mm 38mm types. Ideally i would like to have these on the HVLP system. My shop vac has an attachment point of about 52mm I.D so in theory i could run a bigger hose from it if such a part exists(not seen one, and also wonder if it would be harmful to the vac in any way?)

Ive seen people quoting minimum air flow requirements for their tools but i haven't been able to source that information for mine so not sure what spec extraction i would need. Factor in the fact that i would like to use chip and dust separators as well so i would need a higher spec to account for the losses that these would create.

On the subject of separators, i was originally thinking of a cyclone type but as that would remove chip and dust together i was thinking about a bin lid type before the cyclone to remove the chip and allow the dust to continue on to the cyclone to be removed there, would that idea work in practice? I would like to separate the dust and chip as much as possible as well as preventing as much debris as possible getting back to the extractor for fewer filter cleans/replacements.

If you're still reading this, thank you, i know there are a lot of points to cover in this and i may need to expand on them as the thread progresses but i appreciate any offerings and personal experiences.

Many thanks, Dave.

Just do something that is 80% correct, I've been in the same quandary for at least 4 years and have done nothing. I think I'm about to just get one of those things on wheels that I can attach to whatever machine I'm using. It has to be better than a mask and a dust pan and brush.

 

[Quercus]

Just do something that is 80% correct, I've been in the same quandary for at least 4 years and have done nothing. I think I'm about to just get one of those things on wheels that I can attach to whatever machine I'm using. It has to be better than a mask and a dust pan and brush.

This is the trouble, we sometimes spend so much time researching for the ideal solution or the right tool that nothing gets done. I’m definitely guilty of that. I have thought about getting one of the double or triple motor cam vacs which would in theory be plenty for my needs. It’s an expensive way to find out if it works or not but it could be cheaper than the time spent researching!

 

[eribaMotters]

Like many members I've been through various bag type extractors over the years and I expect my set-up is typical of many and copes well well. My current Jet 1100 with the big paper cartridge on the top is the best I have owned. This can feed two machines, but there is only one of me and I can only operate one machine at a time so it has a long hose that I push fit onto machinery. This includes P/T, circular saw table, bandsaw, large router table.and under table extraction of radial arm saw. Backing this up with a second point extraction where possible is a now 25 year old Numatic vac with fine cloth filter, no bags needed. I also use this on a disc sander, belt sander, router and biscuit jointer. Add my ceiling mounted air filter for when I'm using mdf and I've found this keeps dust levels very low.

Colin

 

[Jameshow]

I think you don't need to over think it.

If you have a bandsaw + sander + router making sawdust a Henry type machine will be fine...

If you have a table saw, hobby PT like a 260 model, router table etc then a hvlp can DX is compact yet sufficient.

If you have a larger table saw, PT and a spindle moulder. Then a large capacity DX with big bags is ideal.

 

[Quercus]

I think you don't need to over think it.

If you have a bandsaw + sander + router making sawdust a Henry type machine will be fine...

If you have a table saw, hobby PT like a 260 model, router table etc then a hvlp can DX is compact yet sufficient.

If you have a larger table saw, PT and a spindle moulder. Then a large capacity DX with big bags is ideal.

The hvlp can DX you refer to is something like the cam vac types I guess. I’m almost tempted by one of the bigger ones of these as I mentioned in my previous post but the air flow figures for even the 3 motor model wouldn’t even keep the particles suspended in the air stream based on the figures siggy writes in his sticky thread. However I do get that in real world practice the science can be a guide rather than an absolute. Looking at the bigger hvlp models like the Jet that Colin mentioned above, they seem to just about meet the requirement unless I’m to step up considerably in price. I’m concerned that once I start adding in separators something like that Jet would become too restricted, and the separation is quite important to me. From my research it seems that most tools will need around 850-1000m3/h. Again this is the science, but a real world test could get expensive so I’d like to get as close to right as I can first time. What is your setup?

 

[Blister]

You can never over think extraction and dust control.

 

[dzj]

A unit with a 4" hose will catch the bigger particles.
You'll need something to filter the finer dust from the air.
Not ideal, but good enough for a small shop.

 

[Jameshow]

The hvlp can DX you refer to is something like the cam vac types I guess. I’m almost tempted by one of the bigger ones of these as I mentioned in my previous post but the air flow figures for even the 3 motor model wouldn’t even keep the particles suspended in the air stream based on the figures siggy writes in his sticky thread. However I do get that in real world practice the science can be a guide rather than an absolute. Looking at the bigger hvlp models like the Jet that Colin mentioned above, they seem to just about meet the requirement unless I’m to step up considerably in price. I’m concerned that once I start adding in separators something like that Jet would become too restricted, and the separation is quite important to me. From my research it seems that most tools will need around 850-1000m3/h. Again this is the science, but a real world test could get expensive so I’d like to get as close to right as I can first time. What is your setup?

I have this type linked up to each individual machine tbh.


https://www.amazon.co.uk/Charnwood-...t=&hvlocphy=1006553&hvtargid=pla-842654853839
More importantly I have it outside in covered porch so any fine dust isn't recirculating into the shed.

I'm a hand wood worker mainly though, wood basher technically!!

 

[Yojevol]

You can never over think extraction and dust control.

Oh yes you can as Dave has demonstrated and others have stated. If ever there was a subject where 'suck-and-see' applies this is it.
Once you have an idea of what might be needed get something and try it. Err on the upper end of your estimated capacity and jfdi.
Brian

 

[Quercus]

You can never over think extraction and dust control.

You don’t know me, I could over think anything! I fear you’re right though, there is definitely more to it than I realised. I’m very keen to get this right as I believe dust management is very important to a safe and healthy workshop.

 

[Spectric]

You can certainly overthink anything, you only need what is required and suits your working practices, here you need to differentiate between a one man home workshop and a large commercial venture because with the home shop everything is under your control and only effects you. Your health is important and the material you are using will have a big impact on extraction, MDF being the worst material to work with for dust as it is just filthy. Also some machines are not that dirty, bandsaws are very clean compared to a mitre saw and I think the P/T is the most needy both from a health aspect but also it needs to be kept clear in order to function correctly. My approach is wearing a face mask when using any machine and give the P/T good extraction but a basic hoover handles the mitre saw and I have given up trying to catch the dust from the table saw.

 

[Yojevol]

You don’t know me, I could over think anything! I fear you’re right though, there is definitely more to it than I realised. I’m very keen to get this right as I believe dust management is very important to a safe and healthy workshop.

It's all a matter of degree - how safe? how healthy? You could go on for ever trying to get the perfect (in your view) system. Try Porton Down - they've got some good kit.
Brian

 

[Quercus]

You can certainly overthink anything, you only need what is required and suits your working practices, here you need to differentiate between a one man home workshop and a large commercial venture because with the home shop everything is under your control and only effects you. Your health is important and the material you are using will have a big impact on extraction, MDF being the worst material to work with for dust as it is just filthy. Also some machines are not that dirty, bandsaws are very clean compared to a mitre saw and I think the P/T is the most needy both from a health aspect but also it needs to be kept clear in order to function correctly. My approach is wearing a face mask when using any machine and give the P/T good extraction but a basic hoover handles the mitre saw and I have given up trying to catch the dust from the table saw.

I have probably fallen down the rabbit hole of trying to spec my small workshop to an industrial standard, where really i could be a little more relaxed with the science. Like yourself i wear a mask and would continue to do so even with an upgraded system. My concern really is the flow rate and how the smaller ports(for example, 67mm on my thicknesser) would restrict that. To mitigate this effect I have thought about venting near the machines port, this in theory shouldn't affect the air being pulled from the machine but should ensure that enough air can still travel through the system to maintain a flow rate throughout. Adding separators into the system certainly has added to my dilemma but i am in touch with a couple of companies to find out just how much this would affect the system. As for MDF, water misting or flamethrowers might be the only solution there.

 

[Quercus]

It's all a matter of degree - how safe? how healthy? You could go on for ever trying to get the perfect (in your view) system. Try Porton Down - they've got some good kit.
Brian

Thanks Brian, I've not heard of them so will look into them.

How safe is a very good question. I definitely hear you. Even i as a bit of a perfectionist(could you guess?!) have concluded that there can't be a perfect solution.

My motives are for more than just safety though; efficiency is important both in terms of being capable enough that I'm not having to unblock or constantly maintain the system but also not so overpowered that I'm wasting power. Separation is important to me also so that i can more efficiently dispose of or even recycle waste. And of course convenience, being able to get on without faffing around moving or hooking up collection every time i change machine.

I had to google jfdi, i definitely need to utter those words to myself more often!

 

[Yojevol]

I have probably fallen down the rabbit hole of trying to spec my small workshop to an industrial standard, where really i could be a little more relaxed with the science. Like yourself i wear a mask and would continue to do so even with an upgraded system. My concern really is the flow rate and how the smaller ports(for example, 67mm on my thicknesser) would restrict that. To mitigate this effect I have thought about venting near the machines port, this in theory shouldn't affect the air being pulled from the machine but should ensure that enough air can still travel through the system to maintain a flow rate throughout. Adding separators into the system certainly has added to my dilemma but i am in touch with a couple of companies to find out just how much this would affect the system. As for MDF, water misting or flamethrowers might be the only solution there.

Just had a further thought on this. I'm in the process of extensive changes in my workshop including the DX. Having seen the amount dust lying on the roof trusses after 16 years I realise my set-up is not the best. But, and it's a big but, this is not necessarily the fault of the vac system. The main cause of dust in the atmosphere is the poor design of the dust management features INSIDE the machine; poor routing and poor containment. I've never seen a machine with a designated air intake. So, try as you may, the DX system is never going to be 100%. Separate atmospheric dust collection units, air change systems (in warm weather) and face masks are the final solutions having done your best with the DX.
Brian

 

[Dynamite]

Mine is a simple Henry and ive extended the flexible hose so it reaches everywhere in my single garage workshop. It has a shelf under my tablesaw where it permanently sits. I just move and put the nozzle on whatever im using at the time such as my sanding disc, bandsaw etc. I also have the brush attachment and wizz round all the surfaces in my shop in no time to keep the general dust down.

Regards... Rob

 

[Quercus]

Just had a further thought on this. I'm in the process of extensive changes in my workshop including the DX. Having seen the amount dust lying on the roof trusses after 16 years I realise my set-up is not the best. But, and it's a big but, this is not necessarily the fault of the vac system. The main cause of dust in the atmosphere is the poor design of the dust management features INSIDE the machine; poor routing and poor containment. I've never seen a machine with a designated air intake. So, try as you may, the DX system is never going to be 100%. Separate atmospheric dust collection units, air change systems (in warm weather) and face masks are the final solutions having done your best with the DX.
Brian

I completely agree with you there. Some tool manufacturers really don't give much consideration to effective dust extraction. My mitre saw is that bad that most of the time i don't even bother hooking it up.

I do use an air filter up high, but this is more for cleanliness and to limit the amount of time i spend hoovering things down. It also helps to reduce the amount of settled dust that gets kicked up again while moving materials around.

 

[Recky33]

How big is your shop ?

 

[Quercus]

Mine is a simple Henry and ive extended the flexible hose so it reaches everywhere in my single garage workshop. It has a shelf under my tablesaw where it permanently sits. I just move and put the nozzle on whatever im using at the time such as my sanding disc, bandsaw etc. I also have the brush attachment and wizz round all the surfaces in my shop in no time to keep the general dust down.

Regards... Rob

This is what i do currently, although it's no good for my thicknesser or router table, but it definitely has its place.