Dum Dum...

[woodbloke]

Lots of confusing stuff as well in the on-line papers today about his mental state, which only adds to the discussion about a suitable punishment. It seems highly unlikely that he's ever going to face execution in Europe, despite all the pleas that it would be a just outcome...(different in the land of the free and the home of the brave though) so the arguments therein are always going to fall on stoney ground...so what will become of him?
My notion of locking him in solitary for his term might be plausible (but I doubt it) as the Victorians found very early on that prolonged solitary confinement has a devastating effect on the mind - Rob

 

[Jonzjob]

What about the devastating effect on the minds of the families of the youngersters he murdered Rob? Also on the minds of the ones who managed to escape or who were shot and lived?

I have already stated what I think, but if that can't happen then total solitary confinement would be my next choice, but that too would go against 'human rights' c r a p!

Best I say no more, it ain't PC.

 

[woodbloke]

What about the devastating effect on the minds of the families of the youngersters he murdered Rob? Also on the minds of the ones who managed to escape or who were shot and lived?

I have already stated what I think, but if that can't happen then total solitary confinement would be my next choice, but that too would go against 'human rights' c r a p!

Best I say no more, it ain't PC.

...and I absolutely agree with you. That this guy deserves to inhabit the lowest levels of Dante's Inferno is a given but it's not going to happen any time soon (at least naturally) so it looks like some sort of incarceration is on the cards - Rob

 

[devonwoody]

I bet he is found insane, and gets a cushy confinement.

 

[woodbloke]

I bet he is found insane, and gets a cushy confinement.

The Norwegians are contemplating charging him with 'crimes against humanity' which carries a 30 year sentence. If he is found insane, then I doubt it'll be a cushy confinement DW...the so called 'chemical cosh' isn't something I'd relish for the next three decades - Rob

 

[Jonzjob]

Chemical cosh? Soft nosed bullet

Difficult choice? I reckon if you use the second then you deserve the first and much more.

 

[devonwoody]

Rob, I bet he would choose the chemical cosh.

Few years down the road he would recover and not need it.

 

[Henning]

I still find it totally mind numbing that an individual could go to such cold blooded lengths to commit an act like this...appanently nine years :shock: in the planning - Rob

It is mind numbing. That said, all the terrorist acts usually are. What saddens me the most is that he had to pick young people that had no means of defending themselves. I would have been more than happy to have him attack me or anyone else with means and inclination to defend themselves. But cowardice is usually the preferred route for terrorists, with Breivik being no exception.

 

[barkwindjammer]

"Dum dum", how very apt woodenbloke, showing even a modicum of sensitivety is a nack you just dont have :?

What is it with you bjw? :? You appear to have the idiotic knack of misinterpreting almost everything I type, which is getting to be a tad irritating. If you can't add anything of use to a conversation except to snipe at me, then please do just shut up!...and if you can't get my UKW name correct, there may be some derivations on yours that could be explored.

- Rob

You could use the 'ignore' feature Rob, you seem easy to upset :?

My point is:
your initial post with its 'shock title' is a little extreme and unnecessary, Quote "I *think* we're all pretty shocked" - just a major understatement there Rob, I think you might levitate if you think any harder !

Quote " to use these kinds of rounds (dum dums) is indefensible" :? - that maniac went there to kill as many people as he could - if a 'ray-gun' had been available I think he would have used that too, the question you raise about the kind of ammunition used comes across (to me anyway) as (lat) Sphinctre Equinus.

And, if your going to make another complaint about me 'getting personal' then you should keep 'your' standards and composure whiter than white, "I have an Idiotic nack" according to you, you also refered to me as 'an Ejit (Eejit) in a previous posting, I must just be a lot thicker skinned than you?, you also have this feeling that I "can't add anything of use to a conversation except to snipe at me" , dont think so highly of yourself Rob, I'll have a *go* at anybody that I think is worthy of a strong (ish) retort, so your not getting 'exclusive attention' .

so, to summarise
Use the ignore feature
Stay true to your own values
Think before you write (saves all the editing eh Rob)
Feel free to 'name call' -
And finaly - Yow shurrup ! :lol:

Disclaimer: these are my opinions and mines alone, this is an open public forum, if I DO start to make personal and derogotary statements to, or about members then I shall expect a warning or an outright ban-at this moment, given what I have written to date,I'm expecting neither.

Edited to change Robs poor choice of phrasing given the context of the post from Snipe to *go*

 

[Dibs-h]

Folk who break the law - usually (to my mind) fall into 2 categories. Those that can (& wish to be) rehabilitated and those that can't. For those that can't should society really stump up the millions it will cost to incarcerate this individual (and others) over the period of their sentence? These folk are not mentally ill nor anything other than a genetic aberration that results in them being bereft of the normal checks and balances that keeps the rest of the population from doing anything remotely close. Needs putting down - you wouldn't run a refuge for rabid dogs?

For this individual - I would certainly back a "Chinese" sentence and would gladly pay for the bullet.

I am a parent and couldn't possibly imagine the horror that those parents are going thru. My heart and thoughts go out to them.

Dibs

 

[devonwoody]

Dibs. thanks for your views which appear to be similar to mine.

(also remember the Pan Am bomber was released last year and he is still alive so sentences are not enforced but might depend on political views at a later date)

 

[Henning]

Folk who break the law - usually (to my mind) fall into 2 categories. Those that can (& wish to be) rehabilitated and those that can't. For those that can't should society really stump up the millions it will cost to incarcerate this individual (and others) over the period of their sentence? These folk are not mentally ill nor anything other than a genetic aberration that results in them being bereft of the normal checks and balances that keeps the rest of the population from doing anything remotely close. Needs putting down - you wouldn't run a refuge for rabid dogs?

For this individual - I would certainly back a "Chinese" sentence and would gladly pay for the bullet.

I am a parent and couldn't possibly imagine the horror that those parents are going thru. My heart and thoughts go out to them.

Dibs

I would gladly be the one to pay for the bullet as well. If there was a "bullet proof" way of determining guilt.
As it stands we've had at least three high profile cases (And who knows how many others) lately of people which have been wrongly put in jail for crimes which they didn't commit.
Please think about this:
You're on your merry way home from the pub and there's noise in an alley. As you live in a very low crime area, you of course think it's Anon who went home 10 minutes before you and had even more pints than you, so you go to investigate.
On your way someone runs out and bumps into you and looses something which you pick up.
It's a gun and now it has your finger prints all over it, just as the police car comes to screeching halt behind you.
It wouldn't be hard for the police to get that on you, even if they run a check of something like wether you had fired a gun.
Now, if you are shot behind the police station that very same day (Chinese way) it would mean that not only did an innocent man get killed, but the perpetrator of the crime is still free to commit even more acts of violence.
Considering how few convictions for murder is due to the killer confessing, i don't see this as a completely unlikely scenario, and i would hazard a guess you would be convicted in the media long before the trial even began.

So, that leaves us with a very few people which is coming back to jail time and time again for violence, ****, child molesting etc.
If they did it and we knew for certain, i'd be more than happy to do the actual shooting of them as well, but as it stands, they probably did it, as it is only behind reasonable doubt.

Please consider the above scenario and also that of it not beeing you but someone you love, a dear friend or a family member. Would you be happy to have them shot, or otherwise killed due to them beeing killers for instance, behind reasonable doubt?
Or would you only adhere the capital punishment in very clear cases? What about the relatively clear cases?

The underlaying problem of death is it's irrevokable.

In this particular case, i would be more than happy to be the one shooting as well, but i would rather not be the one who sentenced, killed or otherwise did something to another human beeing only to later find out that it was innocent. Would you?

That leaves me, and i stress that this is me speaking for me only, with no options but to not have capital punishment due to the risk of wrong doing to an innocent person. It is also very easy to abuse powers which is of life and death, and i would clearly not have any of that either.

Sorry for the long windedness, i'll get back into the workshop now, and remember all those victims of the horrific and tragic events.
Have a look at this for how Oslo looks today: http://www.vgtv.no/#!id=42479

 

[Dibs-h]

I understand your sentiments Henning - the death of an innocent person would destroy so many lives. As for the gun - believe me, you wouldn't catch me picking it up or pulling the knife out of a dying or dead person - but as you say, a loved one easily could and probably would.

I would never advocate the death penalty for anything automatically, but if it is a sentencing option then for some cases (like this one I believe) - justice and be done and be seen to be done.

Dibs

 

[woodbloke]

"Dum dum", how very apt woodenbloke, showing even a modicum of sensitivety is a nack you just dont have :?

What is it with you bjw? :? You appear to have the idiotic knack of misinterpreting almost everything I type, which is getting to be a tad irritating. If you can't add anything of use to a conversation except to snipe at me, then please do just shut up!...and if you can't get my UKW name correct, there may be some derivations on yours that could be explored.

- Rob

You could use the 'ignore' feature Rob, you seem easy to upset :?

My point is:
your initial post with its 'shock title' is a little extreme and unnecessary, Quote "I *think* we're all pretty shocked" - just a major understatement there Rob, I think you might levitate if you think any harder !

Quote " to use these kinds of rounds (dum dums) is indefensible" :? - that maniac went there to kill as many people as he could - if a 'ray-gun' had been available I think he would have used that too, the question you raise about the kind of ammunition used comes across (to me anyway) as (lat) Sphinctre Equinus.

And, if your going to make another complaint about me 'getting personal' then you should keep 'your' standards and composure whiter than white, "I have an Idiotic nack" according to you, you also refered to me as 'an Ejit (Eejit) in a previous posting, I must just be a lot thicker skinned than you?, you also have this feeling that I "can't add anything of use to a conversation except to snipe at me" , dont think so highly of yourself Rob, I'll have a snipe at anybody that I think is worthy of a strong (ish) retort, so your not getting 'exclusive attention' .

so, to summarise
Use the ignore feature
Stay true to your own values
Think before you write (saves all the editing eh Rob)
Feel free to 'name call' -
And finaly - Yow shurrup ! :lol:

Disclaimer: these are my opinions and mines alone, this is an open public forum, if I DO start to make personal and derogotary statements to, or about members then I shall expect a warning or an outright ban-at this moment, given what I have written to date,I'm expecting neither.

The 'ignore' button will be well and truly pressed, so that I won't have to put up with any more of your drivel - Rob

 

[Noel]

Strange title, opening post and one or two subsequent posts. I think it is indeed a little insensitive to focus and be somewhat amazed by the rumoured type of ammunition that Breivik used. Aren't we missing something here? 76 innocent people were murdered in cold blood by a single individual. It's like discussing if the bomb in Oslo was made of fertiliser or Semtex. I realise that the OP is as disgusted and appalled as we all are with what has happened but..........

 

[woodbloke]

Aren't we missing something here? 76 innocent people were murdered in cold blood by a single individual. It's like discussing if the bomb in Oslo was made of fertiliser or Semtex. I realise that the OP is as disgusted and appalled as we all are with what has happened but..........

I absolutely agree Noel, but in addition, what appals and compounds it immeasurably is that the individual deliberately chose that sort of ammunition (rather than just a standard round) knowing that it would inflict the maximum damage and subsequent death. The analogy to the explosive is similar, but not the same. Semtex or fertilizer would cause blast damage, which may or may not kill depending on your proximity to the explosion...these were deliberately chosen rounds to inflict the maximum damage and that's what I find mind numbing - Rob

 

[Benchwayze]

Isn't the death sentence appropriate in this instance?

It is to me what ever anyone else says.

I used to believe so. Not any more. For lots of complicated reasons.

On the other hand why should a vicious, rapist-murderer, serving a life sentence, be given top quality, 24 hour, free health-care, because he is now becoming senile? Thousands of similarly afflicted decent folk, have to sacrifice everythingl they own, to get slapdash care from the National Health-Disservice? Is that Justice?

To me, the Justice system exists to dissuade people from breaking the law, not to so much to punish. Sadly, the system is failing because the only true deterrent; the certainty of being caught, is fading away. Justice fades with it.

I don't know if Justice will prevail in this case, in Norway. I hope it does. In the UK? Justice is dead and buried.

 

[kmcleod]

Henning

DuM-Dum is not a generic name for a bullet that has been tampered with.

It derived from a bullet designed by the British Army in India, during the period of the mutiny, (1857 approx), at the 'Dum Dum' arsenal, and was a bullet with a flat head that was notched to promote fragmentation on contact.

There is a modern equivalent - it's called a hollow nose bullet, and is used by every military in the word, and a lot of police SWAT teams as well, becasue it is an effective device for killing people,

And that is the thing to remember - [/b]this person decided he wanted to kill lots of people and choose his method[/b], either by bomb, (and personally I find it difficult to beleive he put together 6 tonnes of AMFO (Ammonium Nitrate Fuel Oil), explosives, timing device and vehicles, and carried out the atrocity on the island), and then by using a rifle.

I think we all agree this person needs to be removed from society, either quickly, (pick your method), or slowly (cold, dark cell until he expires).

 

[devonwoody]

I'm back, personally I cannot see anything wrong in this instance of administering a harmless drug that makes it easy for questions to be answered. That is not torture if the drug is harmless, they don't half gabble on the operating table when they have medical treatment I am informed.

 

[Digit]

becasue it is an effective device for killing people,


Also to prevent through and through shots striking other people etc.

Roy.