Dovetail Saw- which one?

[Mike-W]

I spent a few days last week trying to set up my Woodrat to cut dovetails in some Olive Ash, but have decided I do not like the process (took me to long to set up, too noisy and prone to breakout)- I will have some more practise after I have finished the chest of draws I am making.
So I decided to cut the through pins & tails on a bandsaw, however while I can cut the tails on the lapped dovetails with a band saw I need to cut the pins by hand, I have searched the forum for an evaluation on hand saws but have been able found any.
Looking at the availability of quality hand dovetail saws it looks as if I am down to a choice of two, the Lie-Nielsen with 15 tpi. Or the Roberts & Lee Dorchester with 21 tpi - a report by David Savage in 2000 was critical of the Dorchester as having a loose and sloppy fitting handle.

Any guys out there with personal recommendations?

Mike

 

[Alf]

There are others: t'other Mike W for a start ; Adria; Axminster's Victor range - another Mike seemed to like those; Japanese; or of course secondhand.

Personal recommendation? The sharpening job is usually the difference - many people seem to find the LN a little difficult to use in that respect, although I'm not one of them. Wenzloff do a much nicer handle shaping job plus Mike'd be happy to tailor the teeth to suit you I don't doubt. The Adria's always felt nice to hold I must admit, and owners seem to like them well enough. But I'm getting well away from personal experience now so I'll shut up.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Philly]

Mike
I have the L-N dovetail saw-it is a great saw although starting the cut can be awkward (as Alf has mentioned) As soon as you get the knack though you be flying!
I also have the round handled L-N dovetail saw and that is great! It is better on thinner stock but so easy to use. It is quite a bit cheaper too!
I used to have the Pax dovetail saw but it is very slow cutting. The L-N saws cut 10 times quicker.
Hope this helps
Philly

 

[Scrit]

Believe it or not Bahco do a very good lightweight (German pattern) dovetail saw for around £8.00. This used to be sold as a Sandvik (which is whayt mine is). Not the fastest cutting, but cheap, cheerful and does the job remarkably well

But maybe that's not what is required? :?

Scrit.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Mike

I have the LN Independence dovetail saw - it is very nice.

I also have the saw this was based upon, the Independence Tools (IT) dovetail saw, and this was refiled by Mike Wenzloff - it is even nicer.

Somewhere inbetween the above I have a vintage John Cotterill which I refiled and set myself. This one cost about $10.

You would be happy with any of these choices.

Interestingly (for myself at any rate), I was recently sawing some very delicate tenons, removing about 4mm of waste (including the kerf). I began with a Japanese Z-saw because I assumed that the thin blade would work more easily and accurately. Out of curiosity I switched to the IT. This worked better than the Z-saw. Then, because the saw was cutting across the grain, I switched to a 10" crosscut saw, and this worked best of all. I was surprised that the Western saw "outsawed" the Japanese saw in this situation.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Mittlefehldt]

Mike
I have the L-N dovetail saw-it is a great saw although starting the cut can be awkward (as Alf has mentioned) As soon as you get the knack though you be flying!
I also have the round handled L-N dovetail saw and that is great! It is better on thinner stock but so easy to use. It is quite a bit cheaper too!
I used to have the Pax dovetail saw but it is very slow cutting. The L-N saws cut 10 times quicker.
Hope this helps
Philly

With all due respect Philly I have heard Rob Cosmin go on about the relative speed of cutting with a Lie Nielson versus virtually any other saw, and frankly this is somewhat puzzling to me. Normally you would not be cutting a dovetail in wood more than an inch thick, so you mean if I cut it in ten seconds with a Pax you can do it in one second with a Lie Nielson.

Frankly I doubt that speed of cut is that much of a factor unless you are cutting two inch thick tenons and then you would presumably be using a dedicated back saw with fewer teeth per inch.

 

[Philly]

M
I'm not saying the speed it cuts is a selling point-the rip L-N dovetail saw cuts very fast due to the tooth configuration. The Pax DT saw I had cut well but very slowly.
If you were to take cuts side by side with a few different saws you immediately see what I am on about.
regards
Philly

 

[ike]

I use an Adria-up there with the LN etc. Looking at Mike W's beautifully sculpted handles on some of his saws, I'd guess they are supremely comfortable to grip. Not that I will ever be able to compare though as the Adrias are some of my personal 'heirloom' quality tools that'll see me out and several more generations hopefully.

Ike

 

[Anonymous]

Yeah, the LN can be a little tricky to start the cut, but once you've used it a few times it is superb. I played with Adria and a few others before buying the LN (I preferred it in use)

 

[Mike-W]

Thanks everyone-
looks like I need to save my pennies and take the plunge! interesting that most of the saws mentioned have 'proper' hand grips, I watched Rob Crosman cutting dovetails last year, he said it was the only way to guide the blade perpendicular to the line.

Mike

 

[MikeW]

Hi Mike--the "proper" grip thing is due mostly to the resurgence in decent tools at an albeit higher price.

There's nothing magical about our saws--or that of LN or Adria. There are two ways to achieve a decent western-style saw. One is vintage and should not be discounted out of hand. I suspect there might be someone on the forum with one they haven't used in years and could part with it.

In general, both the newer better saws and vintage open-handled DT or carcass saws have somethings in common. Thinner saw plates and comfortable handles.

If you know of a saw doctor who can do a good job of getting the teeth on a vintage saw in good shape to begin with it will save a larger learning curve. But you ought to learn to sharpen--at least to touch up the teeth between proper sharpenings. This is a cost effective solution to obtain a very good saw. Two of my favorite saws I use to make new saws are vintage ones.

Take care, Mike

 

[Scrit]

What I find interesting about this thread is the impression that such saws need to cost loads of money - LN, Adria, etc. I recall reading Krenov many years ago where he mentions using the German Kunz dovetail saw for his work - a small, simple and above all cheap saw - whilst the late Tage Frid favoured German/Scandinavian pattern frame saws, another low cost option. I just find that curious.

Scrit

 

[ike]

What I find interesting about this thread is the impression that such saws need to cost loads of money - LN, Adria,

Yes, guilty m'lud, but only of tool lust. I bought an expensive saw. I know I didn't need one, as I suspect do most of us who buy expensive tools. I just wanted an Adria. :wink:

Ike

 

[Alf]

Well, Scrit, to be fair the question was posed "Looking at the availability of quality hand dovetail saws it looks as if I am down to a choice of two, the Lie-Nielsen with 15 tpi. Or the Roberts & Lee Dorchester", which is why I mentioned the Adria et al. I do have a terrible habit of answering the question :roll: The archive has numerous examples of my usual, boring, oft repeated advice otherwise and I just get sick of repeating it (and I bet everyone else gets sick of reading it too); viz here and here. Heck, a card scraper, bit of brass, wood for a handle and about 20 years experience and you could make your own and really save money... :wink:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Mike-W]

Yes Scrit, I know what you are saying but I’m with Ike on this one, I not sure that paying five times the cost will improve my work by five times (hopefully I will improve with practice), but woodworking for me is a hobby not a business. If I get enjoyment (and more importantly more confidence) out of using more costly & hopefully higher quality tools then I am happy to pay the extra.
This has always been my philosophy through life, as an example I am just replacing our Sony TV that is 16 years old- when I brought it I paid over the odds compared to other brands, I believed at the time I was buying a high quality product.This proved to be the case with the reliability- and its still working fine.

Best wishes Mike.

 

[Mittlefehldt]

At the risk of appearing parsimonious, I have under the guiding eyes of Rob Cosman tested a LN dovetail saw, and can say without reservation that the Pax I ended up buying, for $99. Canadian is more than adequate to the task. It is filed rip cut something else that Cosman mentions as required for a dovetail saw, which I gather until recently was not the case.

The LN would cost me double that money here and frankly having tried it twice only for a short time mind, I don't feel it is twice the saw. So I have a saw which I suspect will outlast me, though if I am ever flush with cash sometime, I just may go for one of those Wenzloff's albeit with a closed handle custom made if possible.

 

[whybob71]

Among some dovetail saws I have, the one I like is the Adria. It cut very well but starting the cut need some practice, like the LN I assume.

 

[Paul Kierstead]

The LN would cost me double that money here and frankly having tried it twice only for a short time mind, I don't feel it is twice the saw. So I have a saw which I suspect will outlast me, though if I am ever flush with cash sometime, I just may go for one of those Wenzloff's albeit with a closed handle custom made if possible.

I expect your Pax isn't 5x the saw over the $22 "Classic Gents Saw" that LV sells, either. That is pretty much the law of diminishing returns. "Value" is a flexible and fairly personal thing. Personally, I consider the LN to be pretty cheap; it is one nights stay in many hotels (in major cities) or a nice dinner with a good wine for 2. Heck, a movie+snack now-a-days runs $40. An evening of Hockey? Forget about it. But certainly the Pax saw is good value as well (especially if it comes pre-filed rip) and the Gents Saw has a great price, even if *I* would rather not use one. They all are good values to someone.