Door Locks

[Dibs-h]

I'm looking into getting some mortice locks for the new workshop door - and had sort of settled on a Chubb 3G110 - which is a high security version of their normal locks. But looking around today seem to be coming across locks that are referred to as Eurospec - Google = zero.

Anyone shed any light on what a Eurospec lock is?

Also considering the Chubbs are around £75 each - is it really worth getting one - admittedly the locks on the house doors are all Chubbs - or just get one that is BS whatever (v2007 I think) compliant? Ones by Era for example are 1/3 of the price.

(It's not like Johnny asbo is going to know a Banham from a Chubb - Professional burglars might.)

 

[Dibs-h]

Just done a bit of Googling and there is a well known website that hosts videos and the nbr of videos that show 5 lever deadlocks (apparently BS) picked in <30 with what look like home made implements in some cases is rather eye opening.

I think I might have to give the Era locks a miss and start looking at far more secure ones.

 

[TrimTheKing]

Look on that website for 'bump keys' for your own lock type. Frightening! :shock:

The locks on my house are all some of the most advanced out there (according to the security company we had out to survey the security system when we bought the house). That video site shows one of my locks being opened inside 5 secs with a bump key!!!

 

[Dibs-h]

Look on that website for 'bump keys' for your own lock type. Frightening! :shock:

The locks on my house are all some of the most advanced out there (according to the security company we had out to survey the security system when we bought the house). That video site shows one of my locks being opened inside 5 secs with a bump key!!!

This is a good site - general info,

http://www.larkhallservices.co.uk/locks ... dDonts.asp

Just spoke to the guy and the 3G110 whilst not insurance approved - due to the bolt throw not quite being 20mm as required by BSxxxx:2007, is as about as unpickable as it gets.

Also the rim cylinder that I was thinking of Kabba - dimpled keys - the above chap (rang him for a bit of advice) , also about as un-pickable as it gets.

Have to have a quick check to see if that video site has a video picking them?

 

[TrimTheKing]

Cool, will have a look at that, cheers.

Suppose the option if they're not insurance approved is to have dual locks on your house, one which is approved and then the actual safe one

 

[Mike.C]

Dib's have you ever considered biometric (fingerprint and iris) or electronic locks? The cost has come right down and all of them can be wired into your house alarm, which means if you have an alarm such as ADT a signal can be sent to them and the police called before the thief even knows he has been sussed. On top of that a hidden camera can also take a picture of the scumbag which is shown in the offices of your alarm company.

If this is all to much hassle, a simple iris scan can be had for a couple of hundred pounds. The good thing about most of these locks are there is no visible lock to pick.

Primus locks are suppose to be good. Some say unpickable and unbumpable, and where I do not necessarily believe that, they have got a good name.

Cheers

Mike

 

[Setch]

How much do you want to spend?

Ignore the videos of people picking mortice locks - these are either lock sport enthusiasts who have invested shed loads of time in refining their skills to do this (no thief is going to have the dedication or intellect to do the same) or people who have deliberately staged the video to either impress their internet freinds, or try to sell their products. Realistically, no criminal is going to be picking a curtained mortice lock.

The Chubb 3G110 is a very cool lock, but not BS:3621 approved, and extremely expensive. You would be better off buying a 3G114E, which is half the price, BS: 3621 rated, and was highly placed in the Which consumer test of mortice locks a few years back, IIRC it came in second to the Union 2134E, which is also a good choice, and is also sold under the Chubb brand as the 3U114E (again, IIRC). The Era Fortress locks are widely acknowledged as being difficult to pick by anyone who actually knows their stuff, and I would happily have one on my door. I repeat my point about the videos being either staged, or the result of years of dedicated practice, hours of specific practice to each different make and model of lock, and often, hundreds of pounds of specialised tools.

Whilst bump keys are a genuine issue, and there are videos of everything under the sun being bumped, this is a moot point if you have a wooden door with a lever mortice lock fitted to it. You'll also find a lot of videos posted by people selling bump keys... do your own working to find the connection! Kaba locks are excellent, but the choice of cylinder is not the defining characteristic of the lock - it's what the cylinder opperates when it is turned. I have seen kaba cylinders fitted to 30 year old night latches which can be opened in 5 seconds with some flexible plastic.

You are vanishingly unlikely to be targetted by somebody who will try to pick their way into your workshop, but quite likely to be the target of forced entry. You are on the right track with your (awesome!) door, extend this to the frame, and it's connection to the walls, and you'll be fine with whatever BS:3621 deadlocks you pick. I'd favour the Era Fortress as best value for money, but the Chubb just strikes me as better quality, and easier to fit.

For the record, I have been working as a locksmith for the last three and a half years, and have had to open and install most of the locks discussed, so I'm not just speaking out of my proverbial

**Edit**

Eurospec is a lock manufacturer, they make their products in the far east, and are widely used on new builds and developments because they are inexpensive and experienced in suppliying large contractors, architects etc. They're for the most part a bit cheap and cheerful, though not rubbish.

 

[big soft moose]

we do need to keeep a sense of perspective tho - its a workshop not a nuclear weapons storage facility - the trouble with instally the really hi tech kit is that

a) it might stop little johnny scrote picking the lock , but it also comunicates to the proffesional that there must be valuables within worth that level of security - and you can't ever keep the pros out

and b) there is more to go wrong and keep you out by accident

personally i'd reckon that if you've got two chubbs top and bottom, and outward opening door with protected hinges, and an alarm panel withg klaxon and smoak cloak inside then thats good enough to keep the local low lifes out and to convince the insurers that you took "reasonable precautions" if you get done by someone who can defeat all of the above.

 

[Setch]

Exactly what Moose said - it's common sense, not high security that's called for.

IMO biometrics, Iris, Fprint etc are an unknown quantity, and too new for me to put any faith in. I've heard of both being spoofed with printed images of eyes or fingerprints, and am not anware of any which is insurance approved or BS rated.

 

[Mike.C]

we do need to keeep a sense of perspective tho - its a workshop not a nuclear weapons storage facility - the trouble with instally the really hi tech kit is that

a) it might stop little johnny scrote picking the lock , but it also comunicates to the proffesional that there must be valuables within worth that level of security - and you can't ever keep the pros out

and b) there is more to go wrong and keep you out by accident

personally i'd reckon that if you've got two chubbs top and bottom, and outward opening door with protected hinges, and an alarm panel withg klaxon and smoak cloak inside then thats good enough to keep the local low lifes out and to convince the insurers that you took "reasonable precautions" if you get done by someone who can defeat all of the above.

I beg your pardon, I missed the "Workshop Door" (things on my mind wouldn't you know) in his first sentence, and I though he was talking about his house

Having said that if someone completely emptied my workshop whist I was on holiday, in hospital, or kept away from home for any other reason I would be near on £20,000 down and I would have wished that I had taken notice and protected the building with the best security available.
There was a time not so long ago when burglar alarms were so new and expensive that only business's (or nuclear facilities :lol: ) used them, but now they are fitted everywhere.
In the very near future biometric's are going to become part of everyday life, and so I do not see the problem. Even some laptops are beginning to use finger or iris print verification to start them up, so if the technology is here why not use it? You do not need to own a nuclear storage facility to want to protect it.

You yourself said to fit chubbs on the top and bottom of a door, fit a burglar alarm with a klaxon, smoke unit and protected hinges, so why is this so different from my view, isn't it also going to show the pro that you have lots of expensive stuff inside? How is a little unassuming device beside the door going to make any difference?

In reality how is a professional going to see what security the normal back garden workshop has? Most people have some sort of fence or wall etc so that joe public cannot see into the back garden from the street, so unless you have invited the pro onto your property for some other reason how is he going to see your workshop, and if you have invited him your mixing with the wrong people.:lol:

Weighing everything up I would rather go over the top and keep my property, so IMHO my sense of prospective is just fine. Of course this is just my point of view and others will obviously think that you can protect your property for far less.

Cheers

Mike

 

[Dibs-h]

Mike - Cheers, whilst Hi-Tech is good, a lot of them seem to be reliant on Euro cylinders- which seem a bit pants. I'm much more a fan of cm's of hardened steel than electronics. :lol:

Setch - Whilst I still want to buy a 911 at some point in life, preferably whilst petrol is affordable - I also don't want to skimp. We already have 3G110's in external doors in the house, so aren't massively bothered as I've don't pay retail for most stuff (barring groceries, etc.)

The reason I was going for the 3G110 is that it's a detainer version and from chats with a few locksmiths a far more secure lock than the 3G114's. The only reason it isn't BS:3621 is that the bolt throw isn't a min of 20mm. In all other aspects I'm told the lock exceeds BS:3621. And since there isn't going to be any striker plates in the jamb - I'm not terribly fussed.

The cylinder lock I was thinking of was Chubb 4L67 or an Ingersoll SC71.

I appreciate most of the videos are from "sports enthusiasts" - but some of the tools are also readily available from the old tinternet, and it is a matter of time before such knowledge and in some cases rudimentary tools make their way to scumbags. Euro cylinders have been around for yrs and it's in the last several yrs that it's become common knowledge of how to snap them. As I said I suspect it will be similar for the rest - especially given the recession - look at bumping. If you underspec security on the assumption that the knowledge isn't widely circulated - it's not if, it's when you get done over.

BSM - yes it's a workshop and not a nuclear bunker - but even if my locks cost me £500 for the door, that's peanuts compared to the cost of the build\equipment going in and I'm confident that Johnny Scrote (or even Johnny Pro to be honest) isn't going to get in without a sheer fight on his hands.

Whilst at the same time - no outward appearance that the place contains anything worth stealing, nor of the security built in.

As for the insurers - most domestic policies don't pay anything over 1k for valuables in an outbuilding. So might as well work on that assumption. As for shopping round for quotes - due to the specifics of the property, most online quote engines konk out and display a message along the lines of "unable to quote please ring xxxxxxx" - usually due to the nbr of bedrooms.

Edit: p.s. Setch can you pick a 3G110 assuming you had a decoder and how long would it take? Or would you try and drill it?

 

[Mike.C]

Dib's wrote,

Mike - Cheers, whilst Hi-Tech is good, a lot of them seem to be reliant on Euro cylinders- which seem a bit pants. I'm much more a fan of cm's of hardened steel than electronics.

You obviously know a lot more about them then I do, so stear well clear of my above advice. My only thought about finger print technology was because our bank is starting to use it for our safe deposit box:lol:

Dib's wrote.

BSM - yes it's a workshop and not a nuclear bunker - but even if my locks cost me £500 for the door, that's peanuts compared to the cost of the build\equipment going in and I'm confident that Johnny Scrote (or even Johnny Pro to be honest) isn't going to get in without a sheer fight on his hands.

Whilst at the same time - no outward appearance that the place contains anything worth stealing, nor of the security built in.

I agree, If you are spending many thousands on the contents of your workshop, why skimp when it comes to its protection. £500 is nothing to what most of us have spent on our hobbies, and you certainly cannot rely on the insurance companies to cough up for everything:wink:

Good luck and lets hope you never need to claim.

Cheers

Mike

 

[big soft moose]

Having said that if someone completely emptied my workshop whist I was on holiday, in hospital, or kept away from home for any other reason I would be near on £20,000 down and I would have wished that I had taken notice and protected the building with the best security available.

presumably you have your 20ks worth of kit (and man thats high what have you got in there ???? ) insured - so if someone did make off with your full contents you'd get a nice big chque to reequip

In reality how is a professional going to see what security the normal back garden workshop has? Most people have some sort of fence or wall etc so that joe public cannot see into the back garden from the street, so unless you have invited the pro onto your property for some other reason how is he going to see your workshop, and if you have invited him your mixing with the wrong people.:lol:

the proffesional house breaker finds out when johny scrote tells him down the pub - "you know geezer we couldnt get in, tried da pry bar and everything, but fek man he has this fancy iris scan thing and everythink jus like on the telly, there mus be loadsa gud sh!t in there"

as to the other point having locks top and bottom is fairly low profile - and all the smoke cloak, klaxon, etc is inside the shop where johnny scrote cant see it - biometrics on the other hand require scanners on the outside of the door.

The other point is what are you going to do when johny scrote smashes the scanner in frustration - then you are locked out too until the expensive call out and repair are complete

 

[Mike.C]

Having said that if someone completely emptied my workshop whist I was on holiday, in hospital, or kept away from home for any other reason I would be near on £20,000 down and I would have wished that I had taken notice and protected the building with the best security available.

presumably you have your 20ks worth of kit (and man thats high what have you got in there ???? ) insured - so if someone did make off with your full contents you'd get a nice big cheque to reequip

In reality how is a professional going to see what security the normal back garden workshop has? Most people have some sort of fence or wall etc so that joe public cannot see into the back garden from the street, so unless you have invited the pro onto your property for some other reason how is he going to see your workshop, and if you have invited him your mixing with the wrong people.:lol:

the profesional house breaker finds out when johny scrote tells him down the pub - "you know geezer we couldn't get in, tried da pry bar and everything, but fek man he has this fancy iris scan thing and everything jus like on the telly, there mus be loadsa gud sh!t in there"

as to the other point having locks top and bottom is fairly low profile - and all the smoke cloak, klaxon, etc is inside the shop where johnny scrote cant see it - biometrics on the other hand require scanners on the outside of the door.

The other point is what are you going to do when johny scrote smashes the scanner in frustration - then you are locked out too until the expensive call out and repair are complete

Only about £12,000 or £13,000 is woodworking equipment the rest is car related tools, Snap On, Teng, etc.

As for them being insured, you try and find a company that will insure that lot as a hobby. You can get trade insurance which costs mega bucks, but not on a normal household policy. I have even tried getting a individual policy, but its a non stater. If you can find one I would be very very grateful, but I doubt you will. So if my shop was emptied I would not get a nice big cheque. The worshop is insured for £8,000 and the garage bleeding £2000, yet they are on the same alarm and only an internal door seperates them Luckily there is someone home most of the time, and I have good security.

Where my workshop is there is a 10 foot wall so I cannot see johny scrote seeing the shop let alone telling the pro.

Finally Dib's does not rate the biometrics so I would not go for that anyway, or not until it improves :wink:

Cheers

Mike

 

[Dibs-h]

Only about £12,000 or £13,000 is woodworking equipment the rest is car related tools, Snap On, Teng, etc.

As for them being insured, you try and find a company that will insure that lot as a hobby. You can get trade insurance which costs mega bucks, but not on a normal household policy. I have even tried getting a individual policy, but its a non stater. If you can find one I would be very very grateful, but I doubt you will. So if my shop was emptied I would not get a nice big cheque. The worshop is insured for £8,000 and the garage bleeding £2000, yet they are on the same alarm and only an internal door seperates them Luckily there is someone home most of the time, and I have good security.

Where my workshop is there is a 10 foot wall so I cannot see johny scrote seeing the shop let alone telling the pro.

Finally Dib's does not rate the biometrics so I would not go for that anyway, or not until it improves :wink:

Cheers

Mike

At least you realise you are un-insured to some degree - I wonder how many hobbyists out there don't realise it.

As a house usually is far harder to get into - assuming multiple doors, almost always alarmed - an easy option would be for electronic locks, that are wired back to the house, for release. But only if you laid the trench for the cables and poured the concrete - i.e. cables can't just be pulled up.

Some of the newer alarms have transponder type fobs - for alarming and disarming the alarm. The same panels have relay outputs to drive other things - easy to have it deadbolt the door via solenoids. A failsafe springs to mind, in that what happens if the electrics\electronics fail. But the same is applicable if a high security lock fails.

Whilst I would sorely be tempted to go down the "no bloody locks on the door mate" route, I'm a little pressed for time at the mo.

Mike - if you want details of the panels, electronics I mentioned, we can discuss it via PM.

 

[grafter]

interesting thread - everybody want to keep their kit secure, personally, i would have thought that two mortice locks in the door, with hinge bolts should keep most tea leafs out.

the electronic stuff seems great however I would rather rely on hardened steel!!!

If the door is fairly well secured, there going to try other means to get in - windows, roof etc

does anybody chain there kit to ground anchors? would this be worth the effort?

finally on alarms, people don't seem to notice alarms anymore, fine if your in the house, but if your away will anyone say anything?

 

[Setch]

I have neither the tools nor experience to pick a 3G110 - but I'd be equally stuck picking any BS:3621 mortice lock. I can open them, but it's a tedious business, and not anything a burglar would consider doing - it takes too long, and makes too much noise. The tools to pick open BS:3621 mortice locks run to £300+ and in most cases are specific to individual models of lock. They're also incredibly difficult to explain to the police of you're not a trading locksmith

The reason I recommended a BS mortice lock over the 110 is that pick resistance is a nonsense. Mr Burglar isn't going to invest the money or time required to pick a 110 or a 114E, and the 114E has a longer bolt throw and larger bolt. In a few years time, if your insurance company *finally* update their requirements, they may well specify that you have BS:3621 locks on all your external doors, and at this point you'll have to replace all the 110s, which will be expensive, and awkward, since the mortise for a 110 is significantly larger than anything else currently in production.

I don't really like the 4L67, it has a few too many plastic parts which tend to break or come off, which is a shame as it is an excellent cylinder, and very pick resistant. The SC71 is also very difficult to pick, but it isn't BS. That said, it is a tried and tested design and I have one on my door.

That said, why do you want a nightlatch on the door? On a workshop I'd be tempted to fit a sashlock in the centre position, so I can easily latch (but not lock) the door as I go back and forwards, and don't need a key to open the door each time, unless I specifically lock it. With a nightlatch you're either opening it with a key each and everytime you enter, or leaving it to swing if it's on the latch.

 

[grafter]

setch:

with a BS sash lock in the middle of the door, is there much value in adding a further BS deadlock in the lower half of the door ? i suppose for another £25 whats to lose.

 

[Dibs-h]

I have neither the tools nor experience to pick a 3G110 - but I'd be equally stuck picking any BS:3621 mortice lock. I can open them, but it's a tedious business, and not anything a burglar would consider doing - it takes too long, and makes too much noise. The tools to pick open BS:3621 mortice locks run to £300+ and in most cases are specific to individual models of lock. They're also incredibly difficult to explain to the police of you're not a trading locksmith

The reason I recommended a BS mortice lock over the 110 is that pick resistance is a nonsense. Mr Burglar isn't going to invest the money or time required to pick a 110 or a 114E, and the 114E has a longer bolt throw and larger bolt. In a few years time, if your insurance company *finally* update their requirements, they may well specify that you have BS:3621 locks on all your external doors, and at this point you'll have to replace all the 110s, which will be expensive, and awkward, since the mortise for a 110 is significantly larger than anything else currently in production.

I don't really like the 4L67, it has a few too many plastic parts which tend to break or come off, which is a shame as it is an excellent cylinder, and very pick resistant. The SC71 is also very difficult to pick, but it isn't BS. That said, it is a tried and tested design and I have one on my door.

That said, why do you want a nightlatch on the door? On a workshop I'd be tempted to fit a sashlock in the centre position, so I can easily latch (but not lock) the door as I go back and forwards, and don't need a key to open the door each time, unless I specifically lock it. With a nightlatch you're either opening it with a key each and everytime you enter, or leaving it to swing if it's on the latch.

The 110 has been described as a far more secure lock - now that may mean pick resistance, but it also may mean harder to open, defeat using destructive means. I'll have to have a chat with a tame locksmith or support at Abloy whatstheirname.

The current thinking is this - the more points in a stile engaging with the jamb (i.e. strikers) the harder it is to physically smash the door down, assuming that the other side is well hinge pinned.

If I fit a single sash lock - single point of failure? Now I don't want 2 mortice\sash locks - bit industrial looking. Whereas the deadlock, night latch looks a bit more domestic - have you seen my workshop, it could easily pass for a granny studio flat!

If I fit a deadlock 1/3 up from the bottom, cylinder 1/3 down and a std mortice handle thingy - that's now 3 points of engagement with the jamb - i.e. multipoint locking without the inherent weaknesses that come with those systems (i.e. euro cylinders). Got to be harder to break in?

Especially if the locks all engage in cutouts a continious 5mmx60mm steel jamb reinforcement that goes all round the frame and is welded in the corners.

Will try and have a look at the 4L67 and SL63's in the flesh. I'm struggling to find a Kaba cylinder\night latch assembly.

 

[Mattty]

How much do you want to spend?

Ignore the videos of people picking mortice locks - these are either lock sport enthusiasts who have invested shed loads of time in refining their skills to do this (no thief is going to have the dedication or intellect to do the same) or people who have deliberately staged the video to either impress their internet freinds, or try to sell their products. Realistically, no criminal is going to be picking a curtained mortice lock.

The Chubb 3G110 is a very cool lock, but not BS:3621 approved, and extremely expensive. You would be better off buying a 3G114E, which is half the price, BS: 3621 rated, and was highly placed in the Which consumer test of mortice locks a few years back, IIRC it came in second to the Union 2134E, which is also a good choice, and is also sold under the Chubb brand as the 3U114E (again, IIRC). The Era Fortress locks are widely acknowledged as being difficult to pick by anyone who actually knows their stuff, and I would happily have one on my door. I repeat my point about the videos being either staged, or the result of years of dedicated practice, hours of specific practice to each different make and model of lock, and often, hundreds of pounds of specialised tools.

Whilst bump keys are a genuine issue, and there are videos of everything under the sun being bumped, this is a moot point if you have a wooden door with a lever mortice lock fitted to it. You'll also find a lot of videos posted by people selling bump keys... do your own working to find the connection! Kaba locks are excellent, but the choice of cylinder is not the defining characteristic of the lock - it's what the cylinder opperates when it is turned. I have seen kaba cylinders fitted to 30 year old night latches which can be opened in 5 seconds with some flexible plastic.

You are vanishingly unlikely to be targetted by somebody who will try to pick their way into your workshop, but quite likely to be the target of forced entry. You are on the right track with your (awesome!) door, extend this to the frame, and it's connection to the walls, and you'll be fine with whatever BS:3621 deadlocks you pick. I'd favour the Era Fortress as best value for money, but the Chubb just strikes me as better quality, and easier to fit.

For the record, I have been working as a locksmith for the last three and a half years, and have had to open and install most of the locks discussed, so I'm not just speaking out of my proverbial

**Edit**

Eurospec is a lock manufacturer, they make their products in the far east, and are widely used on new builds and developments because they are inexpensive and experienced in suppliying large contractors, architects etc. They're for the most part a bit cheap and cheerful, though not rubbish.

This is one of the best posts i've read in a while. Very well thought out and it's good to hear the thoughts of a professional in their field.