Do you own any wooden moulding planes?

[toolsntat]

At the moment I am studying the way planemakers formed the wedges for moulding planes.

I have seen some of the tools Marples used at The Hawley Collection Sheffield and I have mine.

Would it please be possible to let me know if you have a "DOT" on the face of the wedge where it meets the body of the plane?

I think this is a datum point for making all the wedges the same height?

Cheers
Andy

 

[tobytools]

Do you have a photo of what your looking for and ill go through I stash and see If I can find anything.
TT

 

[richarnold]

Hi Andy.
What an excellent bit of research, and something I have not spotted before.
I had a quick check of the half set of hollows and rounds in my grandfathers chest, and they all have the dot on the front face of the wedge. This is also present on the side beads, and sash ovolos. The planes were obviously all purchased at the same time, but it is interesting to note that the hollows and rounds are marked Kay of Nottingham, while the beads are by King and co of Hull. The style of the planes, and there wedges are identical, and I'm sure they are from the same factory. I have a feeling that King made them all, and Kay was just a retailer.
I then started checking out some of my early moulders, and discovered quite a number of them have a horizontal scribed line corresponding to the depth of the wedge, rather than a dot. having said that I have found one early moulder by William Loveage where the dot has been used.
The trouble is that you have now set me the task of going through hundreds of moulding planes just to check this feature out :lol:
Thanks for that

 

[AndyT]

Well well, this is going somewhere - a real bit of deduction!

I've had a look through my motley assortment - which is much quicker for me than it is for Richard! - and have found two.

This Greenslade sash ovolo

has a nice clear dot

and this Marples v-groove/chamfer plane

also has one, just disappearing into the dirt.

 

[tobytools]

Ahh, I see now. I'll have a look through my chest full of them and get back to you tomorrow.
I'll do what I can to help.
TT

 

[AndyT]

Here's another - a Varvill dado plane

which has a dot on the front wedge (for the nicker)

and on the rear one (for the iron) - shown slightly retracted.

 

[tobytools]

With out even going Into my woodie box the 6 c.nurse & co beads I own have this strange dot on the face of the wedge. (Two are replacement wedges so don't have te dot but originally I assume they would have)
But yet the 3/4" T&G I also have by the same maker don't appear to have this dot?

Then I dug out my other c nurse planes a pair of no10 H&R and they have this dot on both wedges.

I also have a invicta shoulder plane (late chas nurse and co ltd) and this hasn't got the dot.

I'll got through all of them later and also sort photos out.
Thanks. Hope this helps
TT

 

[Corneel]

Higgs hollow and rounds, very early 19th century: Stripes.
Hields, Notthingham, dado plane: Dots on both wedges.

Nothing on my moving filisters from Greenslade and Marples.
Also nothing on my various assortment of Dutch moulding planes from 18th and 19th century.

 

[Plumberpete]

Like others here, I have several planes with this dot on the front of the wedge. I have several Greenslade's, a John Stadden, a couple of Holbrook's and the earliest is a John Kendall (1786-1813).

However, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of continuity nor rhyme or reason, as the 'dot' isn't restricted to any time period, nor as far as I can tell, are the majority of planes from those makers already identified as having this mark, marked with it.

This could be for several reasons;

1. As mentioned by Tobytools - replacement wedges. Maybe all planes were originally marked in this way.
2. Apprentices from a particular area were taught to apply this mark. The research I have carried out into Bristol planemakers shows that journeyman planemakers were fairly itinerant - out of the 92 I have found working in Bristol between 1790 and 1911 - 42 were from elsewhere, and out of the 50 born in Bristol, 22 worked in other cities.
3. Particular trades may have been taught to mark their planes in this way as some sort of gauge (for example, as plane irons are tapered, if the dot disappears below the plane line, you need to replace the iron), which we have yet to rediscover the significance of.

This is all speculation of course!

 

[AndyT]

At first I thought this might be a related question but on second thoughts it might be a digression.

Expanding Andy's suggestion that the dot is a datum mark, I think this is what he is saying:

In making moulding planes, wedges are individually fitted to planes. Variations could arise from the thickness of the iron or the pitch chosen. The procedure was to start with a simple triangle of the right thickness and plane the front and back edges to the correct angles for a good fit, tightest at the bottom, by the cutting edge.

This individual fitting would leave you with otherwise matching planes whose wedges protruded by different amounts. So the maker put a tiny dot at the top of the plane body as a reference, before finishing off the wedges so the length above the dot would always be the same. This finishing could be done one at a time, by measurement or use of a gauge or it could be done by clamping a batch of wedges side by side and planing the notch across the grain, then levelling and rounding the ends. So a batch of wedges in a clamp could be lined up just by getting their dots in line.

There is a picture of a clamp used for this purpose in BPM III, page 124. It was used by Marples and is now in the Hawley Collection.

I have a plane by JL Carver, Bristol 1823-27 which has a very neat circle on one side of the wedge. Could this be the result of clamping it in a similar device?

Some other sort of datum? Or is it something added as decoration by an idle apprentice?

Does anyone have any wedges marked like this?

 

[Plumberpete]

Expanding Andy's suggestion that the dot is a datum mark, I think this is what he is saying:

In making moulding planes, wedges are individually fitted to planes. Variations could arise from the thickness of the iron or the pitch chosen. The procedure was to start with a simple triangle of the right thickness and plane the front and back edges to the correct angles for a good fit, tightest at the bottom, by the cutting edge.

This individual fitting would leave you with otherwise matching planes whose wedges protruded by different amounts. So the maker put a tiny dot at the top of the plane body as a reference, before finishing off the wedges so the length above the dot would always be the same. This finishing could be done one at a time, by measurement or use of a gauge or it could be done by clamping a batch of wedges side by side and planing the notch across the grain, then levelling and rounding the ends. So a batch of wedges in a clamp could be lined up just by getting their dots in line.

Hi Andy,

I agree, the dot could very well be a datum mark, but why only on a few planes - even by the same maker? Why not all? :?:

I'll have a look through my J. L. Carver planes to see if I can find a similar circle on the wedge.

 

[Plumberpete]

Unfortunately, no circles on the wedges but out of the 12 J. L. Carver planes I have, 11 have the 'dot'!

A quick scan of my G. Gardner's, T. J. Gardner's, Golledge's, Gillett's and Haw's show no dots though.

 

[AndyT]

Thanks Pete.

Why not dots on all?

My guess is because it's an extra job, a bit more care taken, to make all the wedges line up exactly. Without it, the differences would be there, but they would be very slight. So some makers would have taken pride in making all their planes exactly matched, while others would have thought it a pointless fuss.

And if that guess makes sense, I'll add another guess that it was a decision personal to the particular plane maker, unrelated to the mark that was to be used.
,

 

[AndyT]

On the strength of Pete's 11 out of 12, I've just gone and knocked the wedge out of that Carver round and it does have a dot, which was not visible before, as it had sunk below the level of the top of the plane.

So maybe far more planes do have dots, only visible after dismantling.

 

[toolsntat]

Expanding Andy's suggestion that the dot is a datum mark, I think this is what he is saying:

In making moulding planes,..............

I have a plane by JL Carver, Bristol 1823-27 which has a very neat circle on one side of the wedge. Could this be the result of clamping it in a similar device?
Some other sort of datum? Or is it something added as decoration by an idle apprentice?
Does anyone have any wedges marked like this?

First off thanks for all your input folks =D>

The circles Andy I think are representations of the radius on the plane. I have them on the side but not seen on the wedge before.

Yes ,you have put into words Andy what I am supposing happens in a multiple production process.
All of my matching W. Kendall (YORK) planes have the same distance from the "DOT" to the "NOTCH" and the indication of wear on the side of my wedge "NOTCHING" plane tells me it was used against a "FENCE" thus requiring as Andy says, all the wedges to be placed under the "FENCE" in the "CLAMP/JIG" at the same position using the "DOTS".

Some think that the wedges were shaped from a solid piece and then cut into strips, which is possible but where the "DOT" is concerned it would be difficult to get the "DOT" positioned in the wedge when cutting to thickness.

I am not sure if the "DOT" method was used on skewed planes (really should have better access to my 100's of moulders :roll: #-o )
Any one ?
And would the face of the "NOTCH" be square to the side of the wedge?
If it is at the same angle, this would mean the wedges have to be loaded in the jig at that skewed angle.
Not impossible with a couple of angled blanks I suppose.

One thing is to be considered, if these wedges have much of a difference in taper (thicker/thinner irons) then they would not necessarily have all the back edges level when clamped flush for planing on the notch face. Imagine clamping numerous loose bits of wood in a tapered jig but having to tease em all into position. If you see what I mean?

Any way all I have said above is thrown into a different light as the "NOTCHING" plane Marples used (Hawley Collection) has an integral fence which referenced off the very top of the wedge.

Another thought on wedges.
I have a theory that they may have been made from the waste, which is left from the sawn out rebates in the stock.
It is all relative as the wider the body, the wider the wedge is.
As a rule you should get a surplus by cutting 2 from that blank which enables low number planes without rebates to be catered for.

Andy

 

[AndyT]

Ok, I've been back and had a better look and can offer some more samples.

First of all, thanks Andy for explaining the circle on the wedge of the Carver round - a useful reference circle, ready where it's needed. Obvious when you know the answer!

You asked about dots on wedges on skewed planes; in my selection they seem just as common as dots on other wedges. Here is a group shot of some skewed rebate planes - from L to R a Greenslade 1/2", an un-named 1/2", an C18th 7/8" by R. Brine (ex Max Ott collection, reshaped as a dovetail plane) and aTJ Gardner 1 1/2" - all with dots once I had loosened their wedges and lifted them up a bit:

These two rounds by Emes are both skewed

and have dots, just about visible, which line up nicely with the wedge shapes.

Looking again at the Varvill dado plane, here are its two wedges, side by side - one skewed, one not.

The rounded parts line up nicely, with the wedges resting together on the bench, but the dots are not in line and the skewed wedge notch is longer.
Maybe, in making dado planes, all the skewed wedges would have been made together, to match, and all the non-skewed wedges would have been made in another batch. After all, the front and back wedges do not line up on a single plane:

I also found this modern (well, C20th) Marples round

and an earlier Preston skewed ovolo, with a dot on its wedge.

The trouble is, I don't have any nice sets to line up together with matched wedges - and rather a lot of my planes have replacement wedges.

As for your thought about making wedges from the spare wood from the rebate, I agree that it sounds a sensible way to go. John Whelan suggests it in his book on making wooden planes. Frustratingly, WJ Armour, whose 1898 articles are the only written description I know of by an actual professional hand plane maker, does not mention how the rebates or wedges are made.

 

[Mr_P]

I have an incomplete set of fairly modern W.Marples sizes 6-18 in both hollow and round and they all have the dot at the front.

 

[richarnold]

Just a few more thought on wedges and plane makers setting out marks.
Having gone through a few more early planes I have come to the conclusion that the horizontal scribed line was more commonly used in the 18th century than the dot method. These three planes all bare the curious “WW” mark which Don And Ann Wing have suggested a date of before 1720.


The wedges are all very similar so it would suggest that standardisation was going on at the very beginnings of commercial plane making.
One of the planes also bears the later makers mark of William Boyd. I wonder if he was using it in his own workshops as a mother plane?

The inscribed circle on the side of the wedge recalled another early form of setting out that sometimes crops up. The round form of early wedges meant they could be set out with a compass, and sometimes you can see the point, and inscribed ark still visible on the face of the wedge.

This plane is possibly by William Draper, and if so could date to the 17th century. It also has a feature Ihave never seen on any other plane in that as well as the setting out lines scribed into the toe and heel, he also took a line down the side of the plane.


Once again Andy, thank you for inspiring us to look a bit more closely at these planes. I’m sure we all have a lot more to learn about the plane makers art

 

[toolsntat]

The research I have carried out into Bristol planemakers shows that journeyman planemakers were fairly itinerant - out of the 92 I have found working in Bristol between 1790 and 1911 - 42 were from elsewhere, and out of the 50 born in Bristol, 22 worked in other cities.

Hi Pete, sounds like an in depth bit of research you have there 8)
Wonder if you can shed any light here......?
The majority of these planemakers planes I have are marked W.KENDALL from York and ended up in the Warwick area.
Would you happen to have anyone who came from York and then went to Birmingham at all?
Another unproven link in BPM3 is if York Kendalls had any link to the Bristol ones?

Cheers
Andy

 

[Plumberpete]

Hi Andy,

I'm at work at the moment, I'll have a look for you when I get home.

Cheers,
Pete.