Do fancy spiral thicknessers just work without tearout?

[julianf]

I have a "cheap" axminster 106pt.

Ive never looked on it as much more than a roughing tool. Putting anything through it that i care about is nail-biting, even with fresh new blades.

If i bought something with spiral cutters, are these a clear cut "no tearout"


Curiously my £20 hitachi on a router sled gives a more reliable finish than the axminster, but is just less convenient.


Maybe i should just improve the router sled, and forget about thicknessers?

 

[Cabinetman]

It must take forever with a router on a sled, my planer thicknesser with 3 Tersa blades gives an immaculate finish on the most difficult of timbers and takes seconds, from what I’ve read the spiral cutters aren’t always as good but I’m sorry I can’t remember why. Yes mine is a smaller semi-professional cast-iron-beast (SCM) but the results speak for themselves. I seem to remember it was just over £2000 second hand 8 years ago and I’m sure I could sell it for the same now, a wonderful piece of kit. Ian

 

[Chippymint]

I'm surprised by your comments as this should be a splendid machine and creat a finish that should suffice just final sanding. This is a Trade standard and should withstand the rigures of a good days work. There is nothing wrong with HSS blades if kept sharp and set-up correctly. Spiral cutters can be better at finishing but they are not cheap to retrofit so you would have to way-up the benefits.

Your experience so far suggests that their is something wrong with the machine or you are doing something incorrect or a combination of the two. Go back to basics. Fit new sharp blades and be accurate with their set-up. Check the tables for trueness and flatness. A great Youtube video is the Wood Wisperer - setting up your Surface Planner which is very informative.

To get good finishing note that it is better to take more passes and make sure the final pass takes a very small amount off. Realistically all planners and thicknesser will leave ripples to some degree. Most accept this as they finish off by sanding to a final finish regardless.

If after you have set it up and used it correctly and you still have issues, contact Axminster Technical they are very helpful.

 

[Doug B]

I think the problem with spiral heads as with most things is the quality of the head, I’ve only experience using Felder Hammer spiral blocks & whilst the finish isn‘t on occasion completely tear out free it is considerably better than traditional straight knives.

As an example quite a few years ago a friend with a four knife block Felder was having problems with tear out on cladding he was making we ran it through my thicknesser & came up with a finish he was perfectly happy with, but I’m guessing it’s bound to be due to the different geometry of the blocks, the tips are taking a smaller shaving & are presented to the timber at a shearing angle rather than straight on.

 

[julianf]

I'm surprised by your comments as this should be a splendid machine and creat a finish that should suffice just final sanding. This is a Trade standard and should withstand the rigures of a good days work. There is nothing wrong with HSS blades if kept sharp and set-up correctly. Spiral cutters can be better at finishing but they are not cheap to retrofit so you would have to way-up the benefits.

Your experience so far suggests that their is something wrong with the machine or you are doing something incorrect or a combination of the two. Go back to basics. Fit new sharp blades and be accurate with their set-up. Check the tables for trueness and flatness. A great Youtube video is the Wood Wisperer - setting up your Surface Planner which is very informative.

To get good finishing note that it is better to take more passes and make sure the final pass takes a very small amount off. Realistically all planners and thicknesser will leave ripples to some degree. Most accept this as they finish off by sanding to a final finish regardless.

If after you have set it up and used it correctly and you still have issues, contact Axminster Technical they are very helpful.

Its (more or less) fine on softwood, or, for instance, straight grained hardwood, but figured hardwood, even even stuff like oak with non-straight grain, and its not good.

Ive had the machine for some years, and been through various blades, set with care, and never had much luck with it.

With regards to "trueness and flatness", to me, that sounds like wood workers obsessiveness. Remember, its the thicknesser. One table that goes up and down. if its on the wonk, then the work will end up wedge shaped, which, unless you can say otherwise, is unrelated to tear out.

I guess if the table was vibrating or wobbling, then maybe that may affect things, but its not.


I know its a £1000 machine or whatever, but, to me, its pressed steel from china. I have modern Japanese CNC here, and old British cast also.


Really, my query is as to if there are machines that you can just feed figured wood through and not have to worry, or if a easier to use router sled is the answer, or maybe a drum sander.

 

[Cabinetman]

So in answer to your question yes there are machines you can just feed figured wood into – mine as described above. grain direction really doesn’t seem to be something that bothers it at all, interlocking grain – Sapele, end grain cutting boards, no problem Ian

 

[julianf]

So in answer to your question yes there are machines you can just feed figured wood into – mine as described above. grain direction really doesn’t seem to be something that bothers it at all, interlocking grain – Sapele, end grain cutting boards, no problem Ian

Thank you.

Do you think that spiral or tersa blades are the key?

I mean i see BAO/S machines listed for under £1k, and, fair enough, id need to add a couple of inverters, but thats a good lump or iron - but still standard blades.

I very rarely use my current machine as a planer, so maybe i should look at a dedicated thicknesser if that would really get me more performance for less money, and, probably, less footprint also.

 

[Doug71]

My experience is different.

I had an Axi 106pt for a few years, I now have an old Sedgwick MB.

I don't use many difficult timbers, the only one I have problems with is Sapele because it can have really bad interlocking grain.

I upgraded the Sedgwick to ESTA knives which are nice, I have no problem when flatting timber over the top but can get some tear out when thicknessing Sapele. I put this down to it only being a 2 knife block and also the feed speed is pretty quick!

I never had a problem with tearout when thicknessing on the Axi, I put this down to it having a 3 knife block and slower feed speed.

I have hung on to the Axi thinking I might need it on the odd occasion for thicknessing difficult timber but it is just gathering dust.

I do think the Chinese imports can vary greatly in their performance, maybe you got a bad one.

My friend has a Felder with a 4 knife tersa block and he always commented on how good the finish was off my Axi (although I think he is too tight to change the blades as often as he should ).

On a side note does anyone know how I could slow down the feed rate on an old 3 phase Sedgwick, would be nice if some electronic device could be retrofitted?

 

[Chippymint]

Its (more or less) fine on softwood, or, for instance, straight grained hardwood, but figured hardwood, even even stuff like oak with non-straight grain, and its not good.

Ive had the machine for some years, and been through various blades, set with care, and never had much luck with it.

With regards to "trueness and flatness", to me, that sounds like wood workers obsessiveness. Remember, its the thicknesser. One table that goes up and down. if its on the wonk, then the work will end up wedge shaped, which, unless you can say otherwise, is unrelated to tear out.

I guess if the table was vibrating or wobbling, then maybe that may affect things, but its not.


I know its a £1000 machine or whatever, but, to me, its pressed steel from china. I have modern Japanese CNC here, and old British cast also.


Really, my query is as to if there are machines that you can just feed figured wood through and not have to worry, or if a easier to use router sled is the answer, or maybe a drum sander.

Given what you have said I stand by what I've already said. A thorough check is by no means a bad thing. If the tables are not aligned correctly you will not achieve the correct finish when planning.

As Cabinetman says there should not be a problem to the extent you are suggesting. I wonder if your trying to take too much off in each pass? Is it more evident on the planner than the thicknesser or vise versa or both are similar?
I've just read this machines reviews and other owners are not witnessing your problem.

 

[Spectric]

Hi

Your Axminster is very similar to my Record PT107 and that did not perform very good either but I did a lot of homework. The issue was the setting of the three blades, an absolute nightmare and extremely frustrating and I tried many methods. To achieve good results all three blades need to be set identical and that is what I could not achieve no mater what I did although at one point I did get two near perfect so removed the third and just tried it. It actually gave better results with two blades correct than with just one set wrong so now how to fix. There were no aftermarket spiral cutter blocks that could just be fitted as an aftermarket replacement so started to look at the disposable knife types and found my solution.

It was the Esta knife system from ESTA Knife System and I suspect you would need the same as my 107, the EST 260K

The initial outlay is fairly high but setup is instant and the blades are both cheaper and reversable so in my opinion a good solution.

 

[andy48]

For Doug71.
If the feed has a separate three phase motor, then it could be speed controlled using an inverter. If the machine is directly off a three phase supply, then a 415V 3 phase speed controller would do the job. If fed from a phase converter, separate the supplies to main and feed motors, and use a 230V single to three phase inverter, provided the motor can be wired in delta configuration. You'd need to be a bit creative on any interlock between the motors.

 

[Cabinetman]

It’s a long time since I used Sepele so I grabbed a bit and put it through the thicknesser on my SCM minimax fc350 with nearly to be changed Tersa blades. The result was pretty damn good.

 

[julianf]

Hi

Your Axminster is very similar to my Record PT107 and that did not perform very good either but I did a lot of homework. The issue was the setting of the three blades, an absolute nightmare and extremely frustrating and I tried many methods. To achieve good results all three blades need to be set identical and that is what I could not achieve no mater what I did although at one point I did get two near perfect so removed the third and just tried it. It actually gave better results with two blades correct than with just one set wrong so now how to fix. There were no aftermarket spiral cutter blocks that could just be fitted as an aftermarket replacement so started to look at the disposable knife types and found my solution.

It was the Esta knife system from ESTA Knife System and I suspect you would need the same as my 107, the EST 260K

The initial outlay is fairly high but setup is instant and the blades are both cheaper and reversable so in my opinion a good solution.

Ill look into that, thank you.

I dont actually find blade setting too hard - ive got one of those magnetic setting jig things, and have removed the springs from under the blades, so, rather than the jig having to push down the blades, and everything being under tension, it lifts them to the set height, and then you tighten the screws.

Of course, the tightening itself could move things, but i generally check afterward with some mitutoyo verniers, and have not found issues.

Before i got the jig, id set the blades using verniers, and it was no more or less accurate, but took about 10x as long.

Can i ask how you were measuring the blade positions, as i will do the same, and see how close mine are to what you found good or bad? Of course, nothing is perfect, other than maths, so there are always degrees of error, which is why im asking.

Thank you.

 

[julianf]

It’s a long time since I used Sepele so I grabbed a bit and put it through the thicknesser on my SCM minimax fc350 with nearly to be changed Tersa blades. The result was pretty damn good.
View attachment 108012View attachment 108013

Curiously, i dont think ive had issue with sepele at all. Its more oak that causes me bother.

 

[Cabinetman]

Oak? Eats it for breakfast ha ha

 

[TRITON]

Ive never looked on it as much more than a roughing tool.

Too true, and thats all these things are really. Be that planer, sawbench or thicknesser, the only exception being the spindlemoulder.
The others are for cutting stock to size and dimension, from there it's handworked to it's final shape and size.

This is why I kind of have a little snigger behind my hand when I hear of the mythical virtues of this saw or that thicknesser.
The spiral blocks offer a different set of rules, namely making nicks in the blade a thing of the past in that they can be easily worked around by a simple turn of one or two small cutters. Saves time, saves money. The small cut saves power and puts less strain on the system.
They're quieter in operation, but I personally reckon that was never the design, but more of a lucky side effect.

 

[Spectric]

Can i ask how you were measuring the blade positions, as i will do the same

I purchased a Woodpecker one time tool with a dial gauge. I sat it on the outfeed table and zeroed it to the drum, then measured each blade at each end and the middle. Obviously you need the tables set to the drum first. The tightening of the nuts would also move them out of alignment.

The system I use now has three blade carriers that locate on the drum with notches and the blades are positively located in each carrier so once fitted all three are the same and now I check my outfeed table to the drum for levelness and to the blades for height.

 

[Nelly111s]

I've recently changed from a single phase 410mm Axminster trade thicknesser to a Hammer A3 41 with spiral cutter. Both are 16A single phase machines.
I had/have 3 sets of blades for the Axi, so generally had sharp blades in it. and mainly plane olive, which tends to have some wild bits of grain. The difference in finish overall and tearout is quite marked between the two machines.

 

[doctor Bob]

I have a four sider with tersa blades and a 410mm P/T with HSS blades.
New blades comparison, tersa blades are far better. Way quicker to change even with 4 blocks to do.

 

[Noho12C]

It must take forever with a router on a sled, my planer thicknesser with 3 Tersa blades gives an immaculate finish on the most difficult of timbers and takes seconds, from what I’ve read the spiral cutters aren’t always as good but I’m sorry I can’t remember why. Yes mine is a smaller semi-professional cast-iron-beast (SCM) but the results speak for themselves. I seem to remember it was just over £2000 second hand 8 years ago and I’m sure I could sell it for the same now, a wonderful piece of kit. Ian

Which model do you have ? I have an Axminster machine, but fed up with poor blades sharpening.
I've been looking at the FS30C with xylent cutter head. Not cheap but seems to be a good machine. (And not made overseas...)