Decline in Valued Contributors???

[Fitzroy]

I'm amazed at the level of reasoned argument and discussion on the internet, that's testimony to UKW in itself!

I have only recently noticed that I can't edit old posts, as I wanted to make a title change to highlight I'd updated my workshop build. Considering the conversation above I do think this a retrograde step. Whilst I understand that once posted everything is out there and you can never get it back, and that people can detract from the value of old posts if they have a 'moment' and declare 'it's my ball and if you don't play how I want I'll take it away', but these are the exceptions not the norm. Removing a useful function for the majority to prevent an action by the minority is just going to annoy people. All these sites have back up so if someone has a 'moment', surely the posts can be recovered and the offender banned, they likely exited stage left after their mass delete anyhow.

Regards a decline in contribution. Whilst not a prolific poster I have posted a few WIPs over the years, and I've noticed I used to get plenty of comments and criticisms, and questions. This showed people were engaged with what I was doing, helped me to learn, and made me want to post more. This engagement seems to have dropped off considerably, I'm not sure why, there are plenty of likes flying around but it's the posts that I want to engage with. That said I've just kicked off another WIP so we'll see what that brings.

F.

 

[Spectric]

On the subject of editing post, I think that maybe you should be able to edit a post but only upto when someone has responded, after that I believe editing a post can be detrimental to that threads continuity. If the OP starts a post asking for info about something and gets a dozen replies that answer the OP but then the OP realises he has not really asked the right question and edits his post, now all those replies could be left high and dry so you have answers that make no sense. Much better for OP to re post and explain his thoughts so then subsequent replies now follow his latest line of questioning.

Also what about if someone wants to say something out of order to someone, they could post it and then change it but I know this would not happen amongst the UKW members would it.

 

[Tris]

That's a really good point about engagement with WIPs, it's rare to see a good critique these days. It can be so helpful to get a balanced view of what is good about your piece but also what can elevate it to the next level. I think a lot of those who were able to do this have moved elsewhere

 

[MikeK]

I’d be really interested knowing from the Mods / owner why the edit / delete function was suddenly removed. A rational always helps make accepting a bitter pill easier to swallow.

Without going into the details, when the UKW changed ownership (before I was a Moderator), the editing time for posts was in line with the other sites administered by the key staff. I can’t remember the time limit, but it was similar to other sites I visited or owned.

There was an editing time limit on UKW under the previous owner, but this seems to have been forgotten. I had to ask the Mods to change the URLs is some of my posts when I changed my image hosting site.

Some time after the change of ownership, an new but prolific poster asked politely to remove the editing restrictions. The Administrator removed the restrictions, and within hours the member went on a slash and burn campaign to delete content. This childish act resulted in reinstating the 24-hour editing window for everyone. Those who choose to become Sponsors have a 30-day editing window.

I am not aware of any site that allows unrestricted editing time for the reasons described above and by @amongoaks.

As Moderators, we are happy to make changes to any thread or post when asked.

 

[Padster]

I think having only just read all the this thread, that it is the right time and place to just say THANKS.

I've been a member a few years (long enough to have just been here when there was the big move to the other site) - the shared knowledge has been invaluable, the likes a welcome self gratification of maybe what I've said or produced has been worthwhile, and the critiques usually a good sanity check or different point of view.

So the the Thanks is to the Mods, for giving the time, and to all the other members who contribute, to the owners who to be fair run a site without too many restrictions, no real paywall and options to limit ads for free.

Thank you all.

And a note just to say when you see a troll - it's like the bully at school if you don't react they lose their power, get bored and leave.
And a second note - I stayed here and decided not participate in the other site because a site is only as good as its members - this site has been good to/for me so if I stay and contribute when I can, listen and learn when I can't, and ignore when there are idiots I make this site better (I hope!)

Padster

 

[Inspector]

Adding to what Mike said two posts up. The individual was not only deleting here he was giving instructions on another forum how to go about deleting content so more would do the same.

I was on another small forum over a decade ago where a member had a thread going on segmenting and was telling everyone to use the charts in a book or other website to set up the angles. A couple members made the heinous mistake of adding how to do the same mathematically. That OP went nuts on them and they responded in kind but nobody quoted the OP when the made their comments so there was no record of what they responded to. The OP went back a few hours and edited his posts to remove all his rantings, portraying himself as a picked on old victim. Late comers came in defending him and the bottles continued. This went on for a few days and with everyone fighting before the thread was shut down. The OP was banned and that created such a rift that the forum activity fell off to the point where the forum owners decided to shut it down when it came time for renewal. Too bad because it was a fun little forum.

The two cases above are the reason I believe editing should only be allowed for an hour after the post and if a poster wants a revision they can ask a moderator to make the needed correction. We all can preview a post before we throw it up but if a link turns out to be bad or we spell colour as color and it creeps us out to much, an hour is lots of time to go back and correct it. It just isn't worth having a forum wrecked by people deleting all their content as they exit stage left.

Pete

 

[MikeK]

The OP went back a few hours and edited his posts to remove all his rantings, portraying himself as a picked on old victim.

This happened frequently at another site that I visited, which had a liberal one-hour editing time for the non technical areas. One member would make personal attacks against other members and would leave the comments up long enough for the members to potentially see them before editing the post. He would deny making the comments when someone called him out because none of the members quoted him before reporting the post.

He did not realize that the Moderators and Administrators could see the change history of each post. One of the Administrators changed his editing time to one minute, and the trap was set. That member was eventually banned after he made five or six acerbic posts and then could not change them.

Just in case anyone was curious, the editing window timer starts when you click "Post reply" to create the new post or "Post thread" to create a new thread. The time spent creating the post or thread does not count because there is no change to the database tables. Each post has a unique identifying number and a date/time stamp at creation time that cannot be changed. The date/time information is the basis for the editing time.

 

[raffo]

Wouldn't it be in the realm of possibility to change your software so that edits only show the latest changes to a post, but keeps the previous versions of said post? Even a deleted post could be reinstated if it causes havoc.

Wikipedia uses that feature.

I manage databases that allow going back and editing past entries, but a detailed log of what was there before is preserved. We never delete anything.

 

[MikeK]

Wouldn't it be in the realm of possibility to change your software so that edits only show the latest changes to a post, but keeps the previous versions of said post?

Changing the XenForo software is likely beyond the realm of possibility for any site administrator. The default logging time for the edit history is 60 days. After that all history for a post is purged from the tables and cannot be recovered.

Even a deleted post could be reinstated if it causes havoc.

Some battles are not worth fighting.

 

[Inspector]

Software is basically "store bought" so changes and control are limited to what the designers built into it.
Best is too be set up for the worst and never need it rather than having to go back and fix later because you relied on people being decent.
We as members have to understand how to behave but as in life there are always people that push limits and go too far. As a kid you could gang up on the jerk and tune them up. Can't do that on a forum.

Pete

 

[raffo]

Adding code to require confirmation of posts edits by moderators could be an option. Make your changes, review, save, wait for confirmation. Specially for older posts.

 

[MikeK]

Adding code to require confirmation of posts edits by moderators could be an option. Make your changes, review, save, wait for confirmation. Specially for older posts.

To be candid...not happening.

 

[Valhalla]

I don’t know why the ‘old lags’ left

Since you know where they are roosting you could ask them...

 

[Bingy man]

As a relatively new member I have enjoyed many threads by members and I believe I have made a reasonable contribution to this forum both in advice to others ( especially newbie’s) and I’ve received good advice in return when I’ve asked for it . Although my profession as a gas engineer spanned some 30 years I’ve always classed myself as an all rounder or all trades type of person. Woodwork ( non professional) has always been in my heart and helping others is just how I’m wired- I think ukw came along at the right time for me as a complete novice to social media- a great community, the dynamic range of so many different trades and professions, hobbyists, newbie’s, weekend woodworkers etc etc is priceless yet in the short time ive been here I’m constantly surprised at some of the replies by some of the members and of the few who ask for advice then refuse to accept the advice they ask for . I personally won’t engage in negative, non helpful comments nor will I get involved in a war of words with someone I’ve never actually met in person. I will though make my point especially if what I’m saying is 100% fact . I made the mistake recently asking why threads about sharpening were frowned upon . The 1st few posts were fair and to the point - the following 30 + posts were something like a woodwork Armageddon- won’t make that mistake again. But my initial comment was given sharpening is a fundamental part of woodworking how do newcomers get the advice they will eventually need if it’s such a done to death topic- surely the long term members could just ignore the thread and opt out by not posting and leave it to the newer members . As for the issues around editing it’s so simple to read back your own post before you hit send and change it there and then , I had to do this when sending emails to colleagues and other staff at b gas , I do the same if I’m sending a message to a customer or a supplier so it’s a good habit to get into-and a lot safer . So I too would like to thank the mods, and the members for putting a little hope back into my life at a time when I was probably at rock bottom.THANKS ALL, got to go and sharpen my chisels- oops,s I did it again

 

[amongoaks]

Adding code to require confirmation of posts edits by moderators could be an option. Make your changes, review, save, wait for confirmation. Specially for older posts.

we've used xenforo for a few years now -- and it predecessor vBulletin for many years before that -- and i can attest to the fact that it is byzantine in its complexity. there are literally thousands of interlocking features that effectively prohibit "adding code" or any other such tweaks of the internals by anyone other than dedicated xenforo programmers. in the old days we used to tweak vBulletin at will but xenforo has grown way beyond that and even for old hackers like myself the prospect of getting into the guts of it to make changes is a profoundly off-putting prospect.

to be fair there are a great many plugins available for xenforo -- you can often find one to add or modify almost any feature -- but even the best of them introduces additional points of potential failure. if your forum is your money maker you learn to minimize your use of plugins. not to mention the fact that some poor moderator would have to do the actual moderation of the edits in addition to all their other moderation tasks. this takes time and time is money so the obvious cost/benefit question has to be asked and answered.

the point being that AFAIK moderator approval on __edits__ is not an existing feature. "adding code" is not really an option for mere mortals. that leaves plugins and they have the previously mentioned issues themselves. I can perfectly understand why @MikeK would say "not happening", i would too.

 

[amongoaks]

it occurs to me that i should have pointed out the other issue with xenforo plugins: additional maintenance effort.

every time the xenforo software is updated -- which occurs relatively often -- you have to check each of your plugins for compatibility with the new version. but plugin authors come and go, maybe they've got lives of their own and haven't got around to updating your plugin. or maybe they've abandoned the plugin entirely -- heaven forbid! -- so what then? hold off on your updates? abandon the plugin and drop that feature from your forum? press on and hope your forum doesn't break? obviously you quickly run into that cost/benefit problem again. as i'd said, you learn to minimize your use of plugins.

 

[rafezetter]

On the subject of editing post, I think that maybe you should be able to edit a post but only upto when someone has responded, after that I believe editing a post can be detrimental to that threads continuity. If the OP starts a post asking for info about something and gets a dozen replies that answer the OP but then the OP realises he has not really asked the right question and edits his post, now all those replies could be left high and dry so you have answers that make no sense. Much better for OP to re post and explain his thoughts so then subsequent replies now follow his latest line of questioning.

Also what about if someone wants to say something out of order to someone, they could post it and then change it but I know this would not happen amongst the UKW members would it.

This can be true regarding edits, which is why I generally used to add edits under "edit: blah blah" as it's own paragraph etc. My reasoning to adding edits to the original post is as others have said elsewhere, many (most?) people will often read only the OP plus maybe a half dozen replies so the OP needs to be as relevant to either the question or post and sometimes edited for clarity depending on what replies have occurred.

What makes total sense to you can seem gibberish to another; which is why personally at least, most of my posts are often longer than other contributors for reasons of clarity.

Also if editing is only "allowed" until the first reply - during busier periods and certain topics that can means a matter of only minutes.

As far as the other valued contributors leaving this forum, well the answer is simple - the new owners of the forum took all thier many years of contributions time, effort, WIP's etc and weaponised it for thier own profit with little regard to the actual content or contributors; as they have with their stable of dozens of other forums. For them this website is about advertising space and convincing you to financially support it each month despite the owners raking in a small fortune each month in ad revenue, they don't NEED your financial support to keep the lights on, the only people who technically NEED to support the forum are the users who add thier contributions freely, so that the owners don't turn it off because it's not making a profit for them.

That's the reality now for UKW - keep paying them and they will keep the lights on, the content and members is a secondary [and mosty irrelevant] factor.

But then - "no contributors - no content - no point in visiting / joining". Without new contributors and informative contributions / WIP's etc the website merely becomes an archive, and people generally don't read old archives.

The forum they moved to isn't weaponised with adverts and is "owned" and managed by just a few members all of whom are woodworking enthusiasts - it's more like a "woodworking club" the way this forum used to be before the takeover.

If you really feel the forum and archives here are worth keeping then feel free to financially support a company already making many thousands a month, but all the information and the people that contributed it are mostly all someplace else doing the same thing.

I'll be blunt, I'm mostly only still here for the trolls.

 

[Inspector]

Kind of harsh rafezetter, at least in my opinion.

Many are angry, outraged, hate the new owners and their subscription, money optional, which you having the choice to turn off, advertising business model.

Everybody overlooks or chooses to forget the the original owner never said a word about the sale of the forum, never gave any notice of when it was going to happen nor what to expect. Didn't even say goodbye. He took the money for all the freely donated content and scurried off into the night. As far as I remember he never even gave any of the then forum members the opportunity to buy or take over the forum so it would stay a ".... forum .........owned" and managed by just a few members all of whom are woodworking enthusiasts - it's more like a "woodworking club" ........" kind of place.

Given all the harsh comments, hatred and abuse the new owners have taken in all it's forms since acquiring this place I think they have done very well overall, showing a lot of patience, tolerance and not even censoring the detractors. It ain't so bad.

Pete

 

[Jacob]

If "we" wanted democratic control we could set up a properly constituted society or club with membership rules, procedures, AGMs, votes, accounts, elected roles, etc. Could anybody be bothered? Not me!
Wouldn't necessarily make any difference as it could still be taken over by a faction - look at the Labour party!!
As it is it's somewhat anarchistic and, as we see, anybody managing it can do more or less what they like with it.
Seems to work though?
How else would you do it?
And throughout it's various managements from way back as a Yahoo group there's aways been an angry brigade, often the same people!

 

[Sideways]

One of the best run niche forums I've ever belonged to was owned by the chap who set it up and was regularly involved. His forum, his rules, which led to a very clear moderation policy and zero tolerance of antisocial behaviour because there was no debate or need to work out concensus.
He was a good individual, set a good example and all worked well.
Despite all this, when the owner fell into ill health he did not make arrangements to transfer admin rights or forum ownership and it ceased to exist along with the huge accumulation of knowledge and content in it's specialist interest.

I'd rather a forum owned by a company or an individual than a committee. But neither is foolproof. At the end of the day the site only survives based on the goodwill between forum members. Thanks to everyone for that.