DBT85s Workshop - Moved in and now time to fit it out

[DBT85]

Well I shant be doing anything in the swimming pool today.

It's been overly moist here since about 4am with no signs of stopping. Maybe I'll cut my m16 rod and feel like I'm still doing something (hammer)

At one point yesterday I thought "oh poop, I have no more 2x6 for the remaining rafter ties, I'll have to get some" and it wasn't until I was making my post last night that I looked at the picture and remembered where my 2x6 had ended up. poking up into the sky to hold up the ridge!

 

[owen]

Really starting to take shape now! What's the m16 rod for?

 

[DBT85]

To bolt the joists to the rafters Owen. Mike said M18 but it was oddly difficult to get, so M16 and a couple of nails will apparently suffice.

 

[owen]

Even m16 is OTT I think. M12 would be fine surely? Assume you're using timber joining plates too?

 

[Sheptonphil]

Even m16 is OTT I think. M12 would be fine surely? Assume you're using timber joining plates too?

Deja vu.

 

[Sheptonphil]

Well, cutting a bit of rod hardly constitutes a days graft, you could have helped the good lady, run the hoover round the house, bit of washing, the shelf you said you’d do soon
I wouldn’t have got away with it on a day like today.

 

[DBT85]

The sum total of my work today. All cut dutifully on the evolution table saw with the sliding carriage. Very clean and the majority needed no attention at the ends to get a nut on. I've cut rod before and know to keep a nut on there to fix the threads when you wind it off, but no need with that saw.

I did get a bit of the edit done for Part 5 as well as some of the VO.

My usedCladMan also arrived from ebay. £100 so £50 off the usual price and it'll help put up my feather edge and can be sold again after I'm done with it.

For larks I checked the size difference between workshop 1 and workshop 2.

Workshop 1 4m x 3.25m x 2.27m
Workshop 2 6.86m x 4.37m x 2.51m to 3.38m

13m2 area and 29.5 m3 volume for workshop 1 compared to 29.9 m2 area (230%) and 83m3 (280%) volume for Workshop 2. That's not including the storage space up in the roof which adds another 5 or so.

As we all know more space makes you a better woodworker (homer)

Even m16 is OTT I think. M12 would be fine surely? Assume you're using timber joining plates too?

Just going on advice. I can't say one way or the other! No plates. Just bolt and a could of screws/nails.

Well, cutting a bit of rod hardly constitutes a days graft, you could have helped the good lady, run the hoover round the house, bit of washing, the shelf you said you’d do soon
I wouldn’t have got away with it on a day like today.

Ha, well I was up at 5:30 with our kid who was less keen on the heavy rain that was falling. I did sort a few little bits out indoors but honestly not much at all. One of those days. Short tempered and grouchy.

 

[MikeG.]

Even m16 is OTT I think. M12 would be fine surely? Assume you're using timber joining plates too?

I'd show you some M12s I used in propping up a part of the framing of the old part of my house, if I could find the photo. No, M16 (min.) it is in this situation, definitely. Remember that this will be a roof storage area. Also timber joining washers (dog tooth washers) should be avoided. They don't do anything much for the strength of the junction, and they hold the two bits of wood slightly apart, allowing rocking. That is a real negative. All the structural engineers I work with have abandoned them after I've shown them the results on site, and no building inspector asks for them because they know full well that they do more harm than good.

 

[MikeG.]

......All cut dutifully on the evolution table saw with the sliding carriage. Very clean and the majority needed no attention at the ends to get a nut on.......

Put the nut on before you make the cut!! When you wind it back off afterwards it cleans up the thread nicely.

 

[Inspector]

"All cut dutifully on the evolution table saw with the sliding carriage."

Is that with an abrasive blade or a carbide cold saw type blade?

Pete

 

[owen]

Even m16 is OTT I think. M12 would be fine surely? Assume you're using timber joining plates too?

I'd show you some M12s I used in propping up a part of the framing of the old part of my house, if I could find the photo. No, M16 (min.) it is in this situation, definitely. Remember that this will be a roof storage area. Also timber joining washers (dog tooth washers) should be avoided. They don't do anything much for the strength of the junction, and they hold the two bits of wood slightly apart, allowing rocking. That is a real negative. All the structural engineers I work with have abandoned them after I've shown them the results on site, and no building inspector asks for them because they know full well that they do more harm than good.

Things must be changing all the time because only 2 years ago I replaced a fire damaged roof on a property and the new roof, designed by a structural engineer used both m12 coach bolts and the timber joining washers. I do agree with you if they're not used properly they do more harm than good. I find that drilling the holes, putting the bolts through one side then putting the washer on and setting it in place with a socket and a good few whacks with a hammer works well, then when in place using clamps to pull the two timbers together before tightening the bolts works really well. Tightening the bolts alone doesn't pull them tight even with those big square washers. It'd be good if you could find that photo when you get 5 mins I would be interested to see it .
Sorry for hijacking the thread it's just interesting to find out the reason to do stuff rather than just following advice

 

[DBT85]

Don't apologise Owen it's all interesting!

Put the nut on before you make the cut!! When you wind it back off afterwards it cleans up the thread nicely.

I tested it without and it worked OK so I saved myself the faff! I wasn't about to cut 14 without checking. I'm not that much of a numpty.

"All cut dutifully on the evolution table saw with the sliding carriage."

Is that with an abrasive blade or a carbide cold saw type blade?

Pete

Just the standard blade that came with it.

 

[AJB Temple]

For cladding ~ if you don't fancy forking out £100 plus for a clad man, you can go the very cheap route of making a super simple "rod" (template) or use an actual ruler, and bang a nail in enough to hold the end of the board, but not so far that it won't come out easily, this is very quick and works perfectly. Having clad umpteen barns and large garages on my own, I can affirm that this works. And the nails can be reused afterwards. Equals almost free.

Just as quick in practice.

 

[MikeG.]

.......Things must be changing all the time because only 2 years ago I replaced a fire damaged roof on a property and the new roof, designed by a structural engineer used both m12 coach bolts and the timber joining washers.

Was the roof designed for storing loads of timber? That's the point here......not resisting spread, but sustaining a vertical load.

I do agree with you if they're not used properly they do more harm than good. I find that drilling the holes, putting the bolts through one side then putting the washer on and setting it in place with a socket and a good few whacks with a hammer works well, then when in place using clamps to pull the two timbers together before tightening the bolts works really well. Tightening the bolts alone doesn't pull them tight even with those big square washers.

There's still the thickness of the washer plate. To try to crush that into the surface of the timbers is a task with a low success rate.

It'd be good if you could find that photo when you get 5 mins I would be interested to see it .
Sorry for hijacking the thread it's just interesting to find out the reason to do stuff rather than just following advice

I just spent 15 minutes looking, but with no luck. Sorry.

The other reason to do it is because a Building Inspector tells you. I got told that my raised ties (house roof) could be M12 if they are not taking a load and if they were supported by a secondary timber. DBT85s roof is larger than that one, and is designed for taking a substantial load.

 

[Yojevol]

and is designed for taking a substantial load.

Very substantial. Each M16 bolt will have a shear strength of about 2tons :!:

 

[owen]

.......Things must be changing all the time because only 2 years ago I replaced a fire damaged roof on a property and the new roof, designed by a structural engineer used both m12 coach bolts and the timber joining washers.

Was the roof designed for storing loads of timber? That's the point here......not resisting spread, but sustaining a vertical load.

I do agree with you if they're not used properly they do more harm than good. I find that drilling the holes, putting the bolts through one side then putting the washer on and setting it in place with a socket and a good few whacks with a hammer works well, then when in place using clamps to pull the two timbers together before tightening the bolts works really well. Tightening the bolts alone doesn't pull them tight even with those big square washers.

There's still the thickness of the washer plate. To try to crush that into the surface of the timbers is a task with a low success rate.

It'd be good if you could find that photo when you get 5 mins I would be interested to see it .
Sorry for hijacking the thread it's just interesting to find out the reason to do stuff rather than just following advice

I just spent 15 minutes looking, but with no luck. Sorry.

The other reason to do it is because a Building Inspector tells you. I got told that my raised ties (house roof) could be M12 if they are not taking a load and if they were supported by a secondary timber. DBT85s roof is larger than that one, and is designed for taking a substantial load.

No you're right there it wasn't designed for holding a substantial amount of timber.
The washer plate on the ones I have used is very thin and the timbers seem to tighten up against each other. It would be interesting to do a side by side comparison to see if there was much difference between using the plates and not using the plates. Thanks for looking for the picture, if you ever stumble across it post it up. There doesn't actually look like much storage space up there but it must be the pictures.

 

[MikeG.]

and is designed for taking a substantial load.

Very substantial. Each M16 bolt will have a shear strength of about 2tons :!:

As with all things structural, deflection seems to be the biggest factor. Acceptable bend vs unacceptable bend. Where is that point?

 

[siggy_7]

As with all things structural, deflection seems to be the biggest factor. Acceptable bend vs unacceptable bend. Where is that point?

For the wooden beam, sure. But the fasteners through the ends don't affect the beam deflection. Perhaps more to do with the area over which the load is distributed onto the wood fibres of the hole - excessive loading would crush and distort the hole's form.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

 

[PAC1]

If you are going to use the roof space for storing a substantial amount of timber you should leave two or three middle ties/joists out as otherwise you will not be able to get timber up there or back down when there is a stack of timber. The piece of timber has to approach horizontal before it hits the roof and in order to approach horizontal there needs to be sufficient space allow the other end to come up. You can get a length shorter than the length of your joist up and swing it around but if there is already timber and other stuff in the roof space you cannot.
You then should (probably) fix the unrestrained rafters with metal ties to the wall plate

 

[MikeG.]

As with all things structural, deflection seems to be the biggest factor. Acceptable bend vs unacceptable bend. Where is that point?

For the wooden beam, sure. But the fasteners through the ends don't affect the beam deflection. Perhaps more to do with the area over which the load is distributed onto the wood fibres of the hole - excessive loading would crush and distort the hole's form.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

Yes, that was my point (poorly made). The bigger bolt design isn't about the point at which it breaks, but about how much movement in the joint is acceptable.