Dating mahogany(?) drop leaf table

[davej.]

Hi , I recently bought a dark wood drop-leaf table from a car boot sale for the timber.
I was told it was mahogany and it was surprisingly heavy.
Cutting the top up today I cut the end off and it seems to be one board ! 19" wide !
The leafs were 21 1/2" wide harder to see if they were one board. Woodworm signs in some of the frame and top of one leg
Can you confirm if it is mahogany -my colour vision is poor- and any ideas on dating the table.
Gateleg table , 4 turned legs, no drawer ,frame was mahogany and a pale wood in parts , some straight saw marks but not many.
Regards Dave.j

 

[Orraloon]

Cant see enough of the table to see the style of it but what I can see suggests not really old. That kind of hardware was still being used in the 80tes. Lets say 20th cent. Nice timber and could well be mahogany.
Regards
John

 

[thetyreman]

that looks like real deal mahogany to me

 

[peter-harrison]

The screws are handmade which would date it to before about 1830 if I remember right. The very wide boards also look old.

 

[davej.]

Thanks - having poor colour vision has made me no good at ID'ing wood.
Didn't think it was anything special and the short screws didn't look that old at all.
I thought they were type of engineering screws !
It was the width of the top board that surprised me - I'd already cut up the leafs .

 

[Fitzroy]

She’s not my type sorry, more a sycamore kind of guy. I’ll get my coat.

 

[XTiffy]

The real clue here is that you mention the weight of the top and it being a single piece of timber. Without seeing the rest of the table, I would feel pretty sure that it is old and is a good quality mahogany. As you mention your own poor sight, why not get another woodworker to have a look?

 

[niall Y]

Wide boards are not necessarily a guarantee of age. I knew someone in the timber trade, who on his retirement in the '80's purchased a large amount of Brazillian mahogany counterstock as an investment. In those days you could still buy, wide boards which were up to 24" wide.

There aren't enough pointers in these particular photos to fully identify the true age of the table. My suspicions are that if the table were particularly old, then the timber would be Cuban, or at a later date, Honduran mahogany. Cuban mahogany tends to be darker and in grain pattern often reminds me of slices of 'cold tongue' Honduran mahogany was still available when I was at school in the '60's - though all the stock I have used ( apart from restorations) is Brazillian. This can be fairly pale and often requires stain to match different coloured boards.

A moulding to the edge could also help place it in say the 'Victorian' period.. The logic being, that you would only leave a square edge on work using more common timbers. More exotic timbers, like mahogany, would indicate a different class of work, which would probably merit a moulding of sorts.

The hardware, especially the screws, look to be Victorian / Edwardian. A common trick with screws is to cut the ends off if they are too long. Depending on on how much is cut off this might well give the appearance of a parallel shank. Though, looking at the photo again, this appears not to be the case.

Another indicator of age is the construction of the hinges Folded steel sheet would indicates late- Victorian, onwards. A side view of the hinge might well help with dating its construction, and consequently, that of the table.

Not sure that what I have said has been, particularly helpful - except to indicate that it's lots of different factors that give a clue to age,. And it is a lot easier with the object directly in front of you, to come to an accurate judgement

 

[johnbs]

It may well be the original and genuine mahogany Swietenia mahogani - one of the Swietenia family at any rate.
https://www.wood-database.com/cuban-mahogany/Get your magnifying glass out!

 

[XTiffy]

The point that I made before about the weight is relevant. As to good mahogany having fancy moulding, not necessarily true. I have a Mid 17th C tripod table where the top is one board and a very high quality mahogany but the top is plain. I am more wary because of the stated turned legs, which I find odd. I have seen many gateleg oak drop leaf tables but mahogany tables usually have square tapered legs or bery early ones Cabriole legs.

 

[peter-harrison]

Wide boards are not necessarily a guarantee of age. I knew someone in the timber trade, who on his retirement in the '80's purchased a large amount of Brazillian mahogany counterstock as an investment. In those days you could still buy, wide boards which were up to 24" wide.

There aren't enough pointers in these particular photos to fully identify the true age of the table. My suspicions are that if the table were particularly old, then the timber would be Cuban, or at a later date, Honduran mahogany. Cuban mahogany tends to be darker and in grain pattern often reminds me of slices of 'cold tongue' Honduran mahogany was still available when I was at school in the '60's - though all the stock I have used ( apart from restorations) is Brazillian. This can be fairly pale and often requires stain to match different coloured boards.

A moulding to the edge could also help place it in say the 'Victorian' period.. The logic being, that you would only leave a square edge on work using more common timbers. More exotic timbers, like mahogany, would indicate a different class of work, which would probably merit a moulding of sorts.

The hardware, especially the screws, look to be Victorian / Edwardian. A common trick with screws is to cut the ends off if they are too long. Depending on on how much is cut off this might well give the appearance of a parallel shank. Though, looking at the photo again, this appears not to be the case.

Another indicator of age is the construction of the hinges Folded steel sheet would indicates late- Victorian, onwards. A side view of the hinge might well help with dating its construction, and consequently, that of the table.

Not sure that what I have said has been, particularly helpful - except to indicate that it's lots of different factors that give a clue to age,. And it is a lot easier with the object directly in front of you, to come to an accurate judgement

I've worked with a lot of handmade screws and those are definitely handmade. It's not just the blunt ends, it's also the shape of the threads, the thinness of the slots, the lack of any taper towards the end, the general look. As the OP has already removed all the design amd finish elements of the table, it's hard to say on those grounds but the screws are a very good dating tool as they may be copied now by very thorough fakers, but that's not the case here.

 

[davej.]

Thanks for all of your comments.
I didn't wonder about the table much until I saw the board width.
CutOut / burned the wormy frame/leg and ripped the 2 leaves? - a bit late in the day to worry.
I have been told it's mahogany , but I don't know anyone with a fraction of the knowledge shown here - species, regions etc.
The screws had thin slots and were very tight.
Some more pics - the leg diameters vary within 2mm, corner of leaf, frame rail and part of frame rail "hinge".
Thanks again for all your comments.

 

[XTiffy]

Pretty sure this is a late Georgian table early 19thC. Most definitely mahogany. As an antique restorer for the last 45 years sad to see another unloved piece of "brown furniture" lost. Not blaming you in anyway, this is not the only piece replaced by IKEA rubbish! at least you seem to be re-cycling the timber. The first photo shows part of the "knuckle hinge" that the leg pivots on.

 

[BradyS]

Pretty sure this is a late Georgian table early 19thC

I share this opinion. This particular way of manufacturing butt hinges out of sheet metal was popular in the beginning of the 19th century.
The table legs can help pinpointing the exact period more accurately.

 

[davej.]

I hear you. When I first saw the table I just thought - "dingey dark brown" . . .
Seller wanted £5 - he wouldn't take £3 - hence cheap and dingey I cut it up , woodworm made it an easy choice.
May be of very slight consolation for you to hear that I do "vintage" bits of utility furniture - paint 'em black and paint text on,
and have just repaired some cockbeading on a large old chest of drawers - but next will come car filler and then the paint . . .
Sorry.
davej

 

[mrpercysnodgrass]

As others have said it is Cuban Mahogany and going by the legs probably made around 1830. It would be a real shame to paint it black!

 

[XTiffy]

Hello davej, just to add a little, In my experience woodworm is rarely found in mahogany but the grub will pass through it on the way out! Life cycle of the bug is around 3 years until they chew away the last bit and fly away to the next victim! In their home countries mahoganies are prone to much worse bugs than our own dear Anobium Puctataum (wood beetle or woodworm), which originated in Europe and probably liked native timbers such as pine, oak and walnut. As mahogany was most often shipped in balk form and then reduced to its required sizes any affected timber would be discarded. Many years ago I was given a very nice Georgian Bow front chest of drawers, which was painted with white emulsion. I dry stripped it with a scraper (liquid strippers would have driven the paint into the pores), when I was interupted by someone and when I returned to the task, let out a few expletives as I thought I had made a score in the surface veneer. It turned out to be boxwood stringing that I had uncovered. Awful fretted 1960s knobs were fitted with virtualy a full set of the original handles in a drawer. The final result was a beautiful restored piece, hopefully never to have been painted again, but who knows?

 

[niall Y]

Sad to say, but furniture of this type doesn't fetch the sort of prices it used to. £5 is a real bargain. the wood alone is worth far more than that. I recently looked up the price of a Victorian mahogany table that I have. At £190 to £250, it's worth a lot less than I paid for it 30 years ago as a 'doer upper'
Looking at the new photos, I would definitely have to agree with the early Victorian dating.

 

[BradyS]

I too restore furniture for now but unfortunately not British furniture, mostly Austrian, Romanian, Hungarian.
What I can say is that I'm working a bulk order from one single cutomer who brought a truck full of old furniture. And I'm buying the brass hardware from the UK as in my country I only find junk hardware and I don't speak German to look closer. I deviated a bit but what I wanted to say is that after working with similar pieces I, too, share the opinion that it's a pity to paint them. If they can be restored without big complications, they deserve to be and it's all worth it.

 

[davej.]

Thanks for all your very interesting replies.
I plan on making some "keepsake" boxes - definitely not to be painted !
The leg parts used to embelish/decorate other pieces.
I don't have the skills to attempt a decent restoration on anything - when I paint it black it's just whitewashing over the cracks !
I used to buy house furniture at auction and do think that many older pieces are much cheaper now than ever.
Bow front chest sold yesterday -£11.50 - I've bought large old chests not pine and with dust panels for £20 up myself
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Large-An...=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557regards davej