Counterfeit and 'Knock-off' Tools

[n0legs]

It is a simple question and maybe for some it does - maybe it releases their muse. Who knows...

But who really gives a **** if it does or not. I sometimes pick up my potatoes with the knife-end cuz I couldn't give a fork.

Thank you for your input.

 

[n0legs]

Record worked fine for Alan Peters. None of his work ever seemed to lack for fit and finish.

Thanks CS, I'll look him up

 

[Trafalgar]

One of my favorite Fine Woodworking articles of all time is Peters' article on making and fitting drawers. A real masterpiece for sure. The article of course includes photos and drawings -- one of the best photos is 'ole Alan shooting a drawer side (to a perfect fit no doubt) with his trusty Record No. 7. IMO, spoke volumes then and even more so now.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Do the LN, Veritas, LV, Gramercy, or other high end/boutique hand tools make you a better woodworker ?
It's a very simple question. I don't want to hear lines like 'it's reassuringly expensive', 'it's a pleasure to hold and look at'.
Don't even want to hear about build quality.

If I loaned my grandfathers Stanley No4 to, let's just say Tom Fidgen, let him sharpen it in his preferred manner would it have hindered him in any way when he is building one of his pieces ?
Or would he have done better with one of his Veritas planes ?

Record worked fine for Alan Peters. None of his work ever seemed to lack for fit and finish.

He didn't have to work with the 1980s Record 04 I bought new. About 10 thou hollow in length, a handle of very nearly square section, and a bed casting with a finish straight from an angle-grinder. (Oddly, the Record 07 bought a year or so later was an excellent tool, well finished (handles excepted), and entirely functional. It now has a Cliffie iron, and works even better.) That was the all there was, unless you bought mail-order from one of the very few decent secondhand dealers about at the time.

That's the point - tools by the late '70s and early '80s were either of indifferent or unpredictable quality. Hence the growing demand, fulfilled eventually by Lie-Nielsen and others, for something of better, consistent quality. Maybe they were too good, thus allowing others to fill the market niche between modern Record/Stanley et al, and the high-end makers. Gives us a good range of choice, today, though.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I've loved this thread. Hand tool woodworking and the failings of international capitalism and neo colonialism, can't think of a better combination. I was terribly disappointed when I discovered Chris Schwartz's anarchist tool chest wasn't about anarchism, just about a box to put expensive (all be it genuine) tools in.
If you really want an ethical tool kit buy second hand and make your own. However, partly under the influence of you lot I already annoy the other people at my dry dock by chopping mortices with chisels and sawing wood with hand saws. "Why don't you use a router/table saw for that?" , I just tell that they are too noisy and besides it only takes me about 10x as long with hand tools. If I insisted on making all my tools I think we'd go bust.

Well, this is the Hand Tool Forum! Somebody could always start a thread about the ethics of buying Chinese-made routers on the General Woodworking forum if they prefer power tool woodwork, or the ethics of wearing knock-off Chinese Y-fronts on the General Forum (bearing in mind that most people prefer to cover their ah-so in public).

 

[Trafalgar]

I've been happy with the Record tools I've bought; ignorance is bliss. I have no idea whether the No. 7 Peters bought was his first or if he fettled hell out of it. I just know that's what he used. I'm sure there was a point at which he could have afforded a much 'better' plane - vintage Norris or Spiers, maybe, but stuck with the one he had. I guess it worked ok.

 

[Mr_P]

Guess the joy of the more expensive planes is they work out of the box.

Great for the professional woodworker or cash rich, time poor gentleman woodworker.

In the days of the internet and solo woodworking guess the wealthy beginner can benefit from knowing its not the tools its the technique used.

 

[Jacob]

Do the LN, Veritas, LV, Gramercy, or other high end/boutique hand tools make you a better woodworker ?...

Of course not.
In fact for many they reveal the awful truth that they must be cr&p at it, as they can no longer blame the tools.

 

[iNewbie]

Its not about the tools, though...


Lovely chum in the water there, Jacob.

 

[Jacob]

er - what does that mean then? (If anything)

 

[G S Haydon]

I'd agree on this being a good thread. It's been enlightening to find out what peoples thoughts have been on the topic.

If you gave anyone a good #4 Bailey it'd do a fine job and pretty much equal others. The issue with the Bailey was pretty much lack of quality control in later (ie 1980ish) years. Rob Stoakley was kind enough to pimp out the "Wood From Hell" west-dean-pics-t24308.html (must return it soon). I used a regular #4. As a side the much repeated (by me also) fact that Bailey needs to be pre WW2 is not the case. I would go as far as saying I have come to like post war and would not consider buying pre WW2 based on a notion of "better". Larger adjustment wheel, Beech instead of the needless use of rosewood, all tight and tidy really makes post WW2 ideal.
Anyway back on topic. Rob's WFH was provided sawn, I then took it from sawn to planed. The main factors in doing this were the cap iron and yes the cheap pressed steel cap iron from Stanley and others is truly perfect, a sharp iron and a decent tool.

There is always a balance, it's simply no good selling stuff that does not work. But the top trumps game of honing media, steel types, tool weight etc is an esoteric dream land most of the time that distracts from real knowledge and getting real results. There is nothing wrong with appreciating tool making as an art, seeing attention to detail and enjoying it. I love seeing expression of skill in that way but then saying that is really required for day to day making is misleading. The reason I have recommended and would recommend a QS or the like is because they are very well made and work very well.

Paddy, I think you have a really neat concept. If you want to be the true Anarchist then making your own stuff and using stuff that already out in the wild makes so much sense.

 

[iNewbie]

er - what does that mean then? (If anything)

You bang on about it not being the tools, but always mention tools - and tools you have a price issue with.

And it was your usual bait style. Chum...

 

[Jacob]

OK then. As long as it keeps you cheerful!

 

[iNewbie]

Always good fer-a-larf...

 

[Job and Knock]

Do the LN, Veritas, LV, Gramercy, or other high end/boutique hand tools make you a better woodworker ?

No. But the number of times I read a review which implies that....... Including on UKWS where it often takes reviewers a lot of waffle about the colour of the paint, the handles, etc, etc before getting to the point at which a tool is actually being used. Then many reviewers simply don't answer enough questions IMHO. I don't give a fig about what it looks like - I'm far more concerned with how well it works

Record worked fine for Alan Peters. None of his work ever seemed to lack for fit and finish.

Thanks CS, I'll look him up

:shock: :roll:

I'm sure there was a point at which he could have afforded a much 'better' plane - vintage Norris or Spiers

Perhaps he didn't go down that path because he already knew that they weren't all they are cracked up to be?

 

[n0legs]

One of my favorite Fine Woodworking articles of all time is Peters' article on making and fitting drawers. A real masterpiece for sure. The article of course includes photos and drawings -- one of the best photos is 'ole Alan shooting a drawer side (to a perfect fit no doubt) with his trusty Record No. 7. IMO, spoke volumes then and even more so now.

I found Mr Peters, seemed to be quite a guy. I liked the moniker he was given "The Makers' Maker" , interesting half hour I've had. Thanks for the tip

In fact for many they reveal the awful truth that they must be cr&p at it, as they can no longer blame the tools.

That's a good one Jacob :lol:

No. But the number of times I read a review which implies that....... Including on UKWS where it often takes reviewers a lot of waffle about the colour of the paint, the handles, etc, etc before getting to the point at which a tool is actually being used. Then many reviewers simply don't answer enough questions IMHO. I don't give a fig about what it looks like - I'm far more concerned with how well it works

Yes, I very much agree.
Form over function isn't really the issue with a tool, it's nice to have a well finished almost attractive looking tool , but as you said it's how it works

 

[Mr_P]

I'm sure there was a point at which he could have afforded a much 'better' plane - vintage Norris or Spiers

Perhaps he didn't go down that path because he already knew that they weren't all they are cracked up to be?

Have you tried one ? Guess like any old tool their are good and bad ones about.

Interesting what Patrick at blood n gore says:-
http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan15.htm#num604.5

Bed Rock #604 1/2 Smooth plane, 10"L, 2 3/8"W, 4 3/4lbs. 1898-1935.

While many users fancy this plane as a fine worker due to its heft, they aren't especially enamoured with the price tag that usually accompanies the tool. If it's heft you want, and you have the money to buy this guy, save your lunch money for a few months more, and buy a real killer smoothing plane, an English infill. You'll never regret it as they far out-perform any Bed Rock plane.

Never tried a Bed Rock so can't comment.

 

[Trafalgar]

Glad you found him NoLegs. He is *rather* famous.

 

[Job and Knock]

I'm sure there was a point at which he could have afforded a much 'better' plane - vintage Norris or Spiers

Perhaps he didn't go down that path because he already knew that they weren't all they are cracked up to be?

Have you tried one ? Guess like any old tool their are good and bad ones about.

Yes. I'm old enough to have bought and sold more than a few of them over the last 40 odd years (over 80 by my last reckoning, including pre-war and post-war 22-1/2in models). The adjusters aren't all they are cracked up to be and are frequently in poor condition after 50 or more years of use. My feeling is that some of the postwar ones had the best adjusters, but they still aren't a patch on a Lie-Nielsen in that respect, although they look a lot nicer. If you get a good one it's different - but very few these days are what you'd call good users TBH

And as it happens, you'd hardly expect a working joiner to take the word of a tool dealer as gospel, would you? :roll:

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

I've loved this thread. Hand tool woodworking and the failings of international capitalism and neo colonialism, can't think of a better combination. I was terribly disappointed when I discovered Chris Schwartz's anarchist tool chest wasn't about anarchism, just about a box to put expensive (all be it genuine) tools in.
If you really want an ethical tool kit buy second hand and make your own. However, partly under the influence of you lot I already annoy the other people at my dry dock by chopping mortices with chisels and sawing wood with hand saws. "Why don't you use a router/table saw for that?" , I just tell that they are too noisy and besides it only takes me about 10x as long with hand tools. If I insisted on making all my tools I think we'd go bust.

Well, this is the Hand Tool Forum! Somebody could always start a thread about the ethics of buying Chinese-made routers on the General Woodworking forum if they prefer power tool woodwork, or the ethics of wearing knock-off Chinese Y-fronts on the General Forum (bearing in mind that most people prefer to cover their ah-so in public).

Cheshirechappie, for what it's worth I think you may have misunderstood me (probably my fault for not explaining myself clearly). In the last 2 years I have almost completely stopped using power tools for everything except wood preparation and drilling (for wood work, I still use power for metal). I have found it has probably slowed me down (not really by a factor of ten) but has made me enjoy my days much more and too my surprise has not negatively effected accuracy (if anything the other way round) and has definitely reduced waste. It is the other two people that work at my dock that keep trying to get me back on the machines.
In my "dream workshop" all the tools are homemade. All I was saying is right now we have boats to fix and making all my own tools would be a step too far in galootishness. Slowly though I will get there.
I have been browsing this forum for a lot longer than I have been posting and it has been an inspiration to me.
In the winter I wear long johns (the docks not heated), probably not ethical, but in the summer I go commando.

Paddy