Counterfeit and 'Knock-off' Tools

[Cheshirechappie]

Derek - it's bad enough having our cricket team regularly stuffed out of sight by Aussies without being unfairly accused by them of buying tools that aren't even available here! Give us a break, will you - and on behalf of UK woodworkers in general, a bit of a sorry for the slur would be appreciated!

Sorry - I didn't mean to start another body line war (but you guys did initiate that one to stop Bradman).

The important issue here is that we all sit up and take the situation seriously enough to avoid the pirates, even if the price is tempting. I do not mind anyone copying my designs as long as they make them for their own use. How would you feel if someone used one of your designs and profited from it, just because you designed it 15 years ago?

If you want to keep the small toolmakers in business, support them ... not those that take their designs and sell them more cheaply.

Regards from Perth

Derek

As well you know, Derek, short-pitched bowling at the body with several men back behind square on the leg-side was a perfectly legal tactic at the time of Jardine's tour. It ain't now, but that's different! Still, there's always Headingly '83 and Ashes 2005 (cough...)

Look, your dislike of dodgy knock-offs is shared by many, including people in the UK. But do yourself (and your reputation for fairness) a favour and retract the allegation that the UK forums actively promote knock-offs more than forums in any other nation. That's an unwarranted slur, and you know it - you couldn't back it up except by citing exaples of tools not even available in the UK. Just hold your hand up, say sorry, and we can all shake virtual hands and move on.

 

[Jacob]

I'm promoting my hammers if anybody is interested.
Undegoing "moron in a hurry" trials as we speak.

cheers
Malcolm Clough-Duck

It's much like the fashion industry. Somebody decides beige is the new black and sooner or later everybody is at it.
So the fashion for plane blades material becomes "kryptonite 911" for a season, and so on.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I'm promoting my hammers if anybody is interested.
Undegoing "moron in a hurry" trials as we speak.

cheers
Malcolm Clough-Duck

That wouldn't be a rock tied to a stick, by any chance, would it?

 

[Jacob]

Yebbut I thought of it first.

 

[Mr_P]

Excellent news Jacob any chance you could expand your range to include a Navy Conifer marking knife.

Similar handles after all and they say "Our Knives are based on original Sloyd Knife design"

 

[JohnPW]

Hammer with a short handle?
Stanley bedrock planes, first made in the 19th C and whose patent has expired for more than 100 years? Does anyone accuse Clifton of making fakes or copies?
Marking gauges with a cutting wheel? I just saw one in the 1925 Melhuish catalogue.

BTW a product which is a copy or a near copy is not a counterfeit if it has a different brand name or no name at all.

 

[Trafalgar]

Look up spokeshave patents (or review old tool catalogs) while you're at it if anybody thinks the photos Derek posted aren't themselves copies of much, much older designs.

And this is the crux of the whole matter as JohnPW points out as well.

The insistence that these common designs are or have somehow become proprietary is a stretch, at best.

I agree that there is an element of one company sticking its thumb in the eye of another by selling their copy at half the price. Anybody who thinks this is new behavior is being naive.

 

[MIGNAL]

I once made a copy of a wheel. It worked!

 

[Trafalgar]

I once made a copy of a wheel. It worked!

You ba$tard, you insufferable ba$tard. How dare you!

 

[MIGNAL]

Sorry but I had to. It was the only way that I'd make it into 2,000 BC. There was a lot of competition in those days, not to mention some marauding violent types. Wheels were the in thing.

 

[ali27]

I want to make a copy of this product :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB0MBGiX8TQ

 

[Trafalgar]

Good stuff...

I've certainly cursed my Starrett square more than once for being so damned square.

Chris Wong is a funny guy, good guy too: http://flairwoodworks.com/

 

[lurker]

I want one of those!

 

[lurker]

Getting back to the original gripe: I think some of us have been saying to new woodworkers its not essential to spend a fortune on kit. There must be lots of folks put off because people who amass expensive kit as a hobby tell them it's essential.

There are two hobbies collecting nice tools and woodwork nothing wrong with either and you can do both
Many of us here are what 150 years ago would be termed gentlemen woodworkers and there have always been the likes of LV and LN to cater for such people

 

[t8hants]

This is true, a few years ago a guy wandered into my workshop and wanted to buy several lengths of 6mm wire to make something he had just invented, which he was sure was going to be the way to his fortune. Excited at being in at the birth of a new marvel I finally got him to tell me what it was. His brilliant idea was the S hook, and he was somewhat crestfallen when I showed him one I had bent out of an old welding-rod. There is very little that is new in the hand tools department, only improvements or modifications in design.

 

[lurker]

8)
Reminds me when my lad was doing his engineering degree about 7 years ago
He invented a soft door closer all the design, costings and marketing and the profit he was going to make from this unique idea.
Showed him a virtual identical B&Q one I happened to have in my shed and then gently pointed out the Blum closers that had been on the kitchen cabinet doors since he was about 15 :lol:

 

[Job and Knock]

I want to make a copy of this product :lol:

Somebody is already making them - every bricky and plasterer I know of already has one. At least based on the right angle corners they do :roll:

Many of us here are what 150 years ago would be termed gentlemen woodworkers and there have always been the likes of LV and LN to cater for such people

Speak for yourself - I'm one of the hairy-tongued sons of toil (it's a Sunday aftrernoon, think about it). To me it's all a bit of a non-argument because I look at L-N or Veritas planes, think how much they cost and how little (if anything) they'll add to my bottom line (i.e. nil or almost!) and then mostly turn away and buy a cheaper plane which may need to be fettled or modified. And here we have a "maker to the gentry" who apparently hasn't taken the basic steps to trademark protect his name and products or copyright his designs who is then complaining about other, presumably in his opinion less scrupulous manufacturers, stealing "his" designs. Sorry mate, but you are in business and that's the way it works

 

[ayuce]

Having some knowledge on patent system (name in inventor list of 13 patents, some more applications pending ) just read the discussions with a smile. Patent and utility model are two main concept of patent system. Not sure about industrial design issues, but woodworking tools are definitely in the patent system.

If you have one of them you can protect your designs. If you don't have a valid, fees paid patent/utility model either you didn't do anything new or just lazy to protect your intellectual property. So US guys should just talk in terms patent claims, not physical similarities. Thats the system they build and accept.

 

[Jacob]

This is true, a few years ago a guy wandered into my workshop and wanted to buy several lengths of 6mm wire to make something he had just invented, which he was sure was going to be the way to his fortune. Excited at being in at the birth of a new marvel I finally got him to tell me what it was. His brilliant idea was the S hook, and he was somewhat crestfallen when I showed him one I had bent out of an old welding-rod. There is very little that is new in the hand tools department, only improvements or modifications in design.

I had a chap wander in with a photo of one of those pub benches which cleverly fold out into a table plus bench. He wanted me to design one and give him a price for a single prototype. I told him if it was me I'd just go and buy one the same and copy/improve it - they were only £100 ish. Then I wouldn't have to charge so much for R&D. He wouldn't have it.
But basically any good designer copies as far as possible. You wouldn't design a table without first having a good look at a few tables. Hands on if poss.
"If I have seen further it is by standing on ye sholders of Giants" is one way of looking at it. Not attempting to reinvent the wheel, is another.
Originality isn't all it's cracked up to be.

 

[Bod]

Brought a pair of "Facom" knock off locking grips for £5 from a market stall (real ones at the time £35)
Taught me a lesson, never buy cheap tools, there is a catch! The Bl##d/ thing bent the first time used.
My rule now for buying tools, does the manufacture have enough confidence to put their name on it. Not just a sticky label, but cast/stamped/engraved.

Bod