Council fined £20k for saw injury - Saw Stop would have prevented this

[Agent_zed]

Do they even have metalwork or woodwork workshops anymore ? Back in the 70's we were let loose with chisels and metalworking lathes and the only injury I can recal is the teacher cutting himself with a chisel.

Yeah. I worked as an IT tech in a large secondary school 3 years ago. It had quite a lot of kit. I got friendly with the head of D+T so I got to use the equipment for bits I wanted to do. Quite useful having access to a big metal lathe. Made all the knobs for my guitar and a handbrake lever for my kitcar.

He was trying to increase the amount of kit they had as well. I know back 20yrs ago or so it seemed they were having less and less hands on experience but I think they are trying to bring it back.

Having said that there is a big push for the CAD side of things with the use of lazer cutters and 3d printers. Which I guess is useful for industry but I don't think it can leave you with the base knowledge of why things are done certain ways or the satisfaction of creating something with your own hands.

All of the big tools had key shutoffs though to stop unauthorised people using them. Although as good as that is it doesn't stop a busy teacher forgetting to turn it off or a kid messing about whilst there back is turned. Table saw was kept out of sight though.

 

[heimlaga]

I am really sick and tired of this Sawstop propaganda.

To to rip a 4 metre long 6x8 inch baulk on a Sawstop and we will see how safe it is and how many times the motor must be rewound before continuing the cut. Try to cut an tenon on the end of a two metre long 2x4 and then report back.
Try to work green timber or timber that has got a bit or rain or sleet or ice on it and report back.
Does anyone know how the electronics are affected by cold. Will they work in -30 celsius. Will they work when the temperatureis falling and everything is covered in condensation or hoarfrost?
That is the reality a tablesaw must cope woth unless we are aiming to go back to the era of hand ripping and hewing.

What is needed is a ban against those wicked riving knife mounted guards. Thy are designed on purpose so that you must remove the guard to use the saw. A proper overarm guard is much safer.
Then it is a matter of training and long push sticks.

 

[Jacob]

I am really sick and tired of this Sawstop propaganda.

Me too!

....

What is needed is a ban against those wicked riving knife mounted guards. .....

Really? I think they are brilliant and very safe. Possibly the simplest and best safety measure of all.

 

[TRITON]

Try to work green timber or timber that has got a bit or rain or sleet or ice on it and report back.

Reports back that you switch the saw stop part off if cutting green or wet timber. That is once you've checked it using the function that checks that if the timber is too wet it will set off the system

Which I thought you would have known being a saw stop owner.

Me too!

Really? I think they are brilliant and very safe. Possibly the simplest and best safety measure of all.

Except they impede cutting of tenons.

And as we all know tenons are a rare joint to be cut in woodworking

 

[Jacob]

Except they impede cutting of tenons.

And as we all know tenons are a rare joint to be cut in woodworking

Well you can take them off when necessary but best left on for most purposes.

 

[heimlaga]

The problem with those riving knife mounted guards is that they require a riving knife that protrudes above the blade. Removing and replacing the riving knife takes time. Especially if you need to do it half a dozen times during a workday. Which is practise means that the riving knife is left off.
Another problem is ripping thick timber which I usually do from both sides. I don't feel comfortable doing a 10 cm deep trenching cut without a riving knife and I rekon there is something behind that feeling.
Therefore I prefere a short riving knife which can be left in place all the time and an overarm guard.

My aversion against Sawstops comes from the fact that I do a wide variety of work. Using timber with a wide variety of moisture contents.

When I work onsite the timber usually gets a bit or rain or hoarfrost or snow on it. My site saw often lives outside under a tarpaulin and if a blizzard is blowing I use the saw in midst of the blizzard. Sometimes I work with green timber straight from the sawmill. As I use a lot of spruce there are often pockets of more or less dried or liquid resin inside.
In winter most onsite work stop around -20 or -25 degrees celsius but when I am at home waiting for warmer weather I may well do some carpentry at home. I have done it domn ti -35 celsius. Then it becomes just too cold for mty hands. Few electronic things work in such temperatures but what else is there to do. Logging becomes unbearable around -25 or -30. My tractor doesn't get proper lubrication below -20. Welding and metal fabrication cools my hands too badly and below -15 there is a huge risk for stress cracks as the welds cool too fast. So I often end up doing carpentry outdoors for a few hours at a time on those cold days. Interspesed with housework indoors.

In my workshop I have shelves for fully dried timber. Though when I work on boats I keep the boat under a lean to outside and use air dried timber which I keep under the same lean to. Sometimes a bit of snow drifts in or some raindrops fall on a board when I carry it between the lean to and the workshop door. Sometimes the wood has been steam bent to shape and not quite dried out.
In any case sawstop doesn't to my knowedge make any saw with a 400mm blade and 3.7 kw three phase motor and sliding table which is what I need to get the job done.

Honestly I don't think I could get it right every time trying to judge the moisture content and resin content and trying to remember the on-off switch on a sawstop. Every misstake in that respect is costly they say.

 

[John Brown]

The problem with those riving knife mounted guards is that they require a riving knife that protrudes above the blade. Removing and replacing the riving knife takes time. Especially if you need to do it half a dozen times during a workday. Which is practise means that the riving knife is left off.
Another problem is ripping thick timber which I usually do from both sides. I don't feel comfortable doing a 10 cm deep trenching cut without a riving knife and I rekon there is something behind that feeling.
Therefore I prefere a short riving knife which can be left in place all the time and an overarm guard.

My aversion against Sawstops comes from the fact that I do a wide variety of work. Using timber with a wide variety of moisture contents.

When I work onsite the timber usually gets a bit or rain or hoarfrost or snow on it. My site saw often lives outside under a tarpaulin and if a blizzard is blowing I use the saw in midst of the blizzard. Sometimes I work with green timber straight from the sawmill. As I use a lot of spruce there are often pockets of more or less dried or liquid resin inside.
In winter most onsite work stop around -20 or -25 degrees celsius but when I am at home waiting for warmer weather I may well do some carpentry at home. I have done it domn ti -35 celsius. Then it becomes just too cold for mty hands. Few electronic things work in such temperatures but what else is there to do. Logging becomes unbearable around -25 or -30. My tractor doesn't get proper lubrication below -20. Welding and metal fabrication cools my hands too badly and below -15 there is a huge risk for stress cracks as the welds cool too fast. So I often end up doing carpentry outdoors for a few hours at a time on those cold days. Interspesed with housework indoors.

In my workshop I have shelves for fully dried timber. Though when I work on boats I keep the boat under a lean to outside and use air dried timber which I keep under the same lean to. Sometimes a bit of snow drifts in or some raindrops fall on a board when I carry it between the lean to and the workshop door. Sometimes the wood has been steam bent to shape and not quite dried out.
In any case sawstop doesn't to my knowedge make any saw with a 400mm blade and 3.7 kw three phase motor and sliding table which is what I need to get the job done.

Honestly I don't think I could get it right every time trying to judge the moisture content and resin content and trying to remember the on-off switch on a sawstop. Every misstake in that respect is costly they say.

I would venture to suggest that you are not the typical table saw user.

 

[Ed Weber]

Back to the original story;
I'm a firm believer in proper training but even If a SawStop had been used, wouldn't triggering it need to be reported?
I suspect that each triggering would invite a visit from H&S and the only thing that would be different in this situations is, that the man would just have a nick in his finger and the council would be out even more money, having to purchase a new cartridge and blade in addition to the fine.

 

[Nick.]

In winter most onsite work stop around -20 or -25 degrees celsius

Well on the plus side, if you do ever (and I sincerely hope not) lop off a few fingers, then you won't have to worry about packing them in frozen peas like us in the slightly milder UK.

 

[Nick.]

having to purchase a new cartridge and blade in addition to the fine.

For info, my understanding is cartridge will be replaced FOC once it's confirmed skin contact. It's just a new blade they would need.

 

[Ed Weber]

For info, my understanding is cartridge will be replaced FOC once it's confirmed skin contact. It's just a new blade they would need.

So if you're unfortunate (or stupid) enough to actually touch the blade it's free. If it's triggered in some other way, like some damp timber, they you pay. Makes perfect sense to me.

Maybe SawStop should be like a video game, you get three triggers then game over, you can't buy anymore cartridges.

 

[Spectric]

When you read the gumph about this sawstop it has a major issue in that it is the same as an E stop, something that reacts after the event. With an E stop something has happened and someone operates the stop and with the sawstop you have to make contact with the blade, it appears only to mitigate against serious injury and not total prevention.

 

[Jake]

When you read the gumph about this sawstop it has a major issue in that it is the same as an E stop, something that reacts after the event. With an E stop something has happened and someone operates the stop and with the sawstop you have to make contact with the blade, it appears only to mitigate against serious injury and not total prevention.

The reaction time is very different. At least on sausages Sawstop works fast enough to leave only a minor nick.

 

[TRITON]

In any case sawstop doesn't to my knowedge make any saw with a 400mm blade and 3.7 kw three phase motor and sliding table which is what I need to get the job done.

Obviously not, but then their range is that of cabinet saws and contractor saws, not industrial or production machinery.

 

[Jake]

The problem with those riving knife mounted guards is that they require a riving knife that protrudes above the blade. Removing and replacing the riving knife takes time. Especially if you need to do it half a dozen times during a workday. Which is practise means that the riving knife is left off.

Mine is on a detent which will allow it to drop 10mm or so such that the top is level with the top of the blade when the guard is off for trenching cuts. Appreciate that is unusual though.

 

[Spectric]

Obviously not, but then their range is that of cabinet saws and contractor saws, not industrial or production machinery.

I suppose the industrial machinery does have a brake, when used in a place of work then training and safety is part of PUWER whereas sawstop is aimed at more home / hobby where anyone can have a go and either learn the right way or potentially get injured.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

SawStop does have a significant flaw: it's supplied with a long rip fence, an excellent piece of kit for encouraging kickback. Get that sorted and SawStop may have a case for being sold in Europe.

Of course, perhaps everyone realises, as I do, that SawStop was primarily developed in response to the sloppy (risky) work habits of many North American cabinet saw users, i.e., no guards, long rip fence (often used as a cross-cutting length stop for long boards), dado blades, moulding heads, tenon cutting, angled approach cove cutting over an exposed blade, the push stick is for pansies mindset, and so on.

I have to admit that having lived and worked in the US and witnessed many American cabinet saw users doing some truly daft things on a cabinet saw, it doesn't surprise me that SawStop came to be. Slainte.

 

[HamsterJam]

Mine is on a detent which will allow it to drop 10mm or so such that the top is level with the top of the blade when the guard is off for trenching cuts. Appreciate that is unusual though.

The problem with those riving knife mounted guards is that they require a riving knife that protrudes above the blade. Removing and replacing the riving knife takes time. Especially if you need to do it half a dozen times during a workday. Which is practise means that the riving knife is left off.

I have a Bosch ‘site saw’. It has a two positions for the riving knife one level with the top of the blade and the other above blade height to support the crown guard. The height can be changed quickly by releasing a locking lever under the top plate.

 

[Trafalgar]

Idiotic to feed wood into a table saw with bare hands even if it is a SawStop saw. Anybody who thinks it's either/or has a room temperature IQ, and probably missing digits.

 

[Ed Weber]

Idiotic to feed wood into a table saw with bare hands even if it is a SawStop saw. Anybody who thinks it's either/or has a room temperature IQ, and probably missing digits.

Everyone grows up/learns in different ways.
Here in the states, long fences are common, just like dado blades and just like personal methods of work and many other aspects of woodworking.
I've been at this for several decades and yes, I still feed wood into a table saw with my hands, I still use dado blades, my saw has no riving knife, just a splitter and guard for through cuts. I also use push blocks and sticks when appropriate. I don't particularly like my fingers close to the blade.
None of these things are dangerous if done/used properly

It would seem that you learned with a push stick in your hand, that doesn't mean we all did.
Just broadly complaining about those who don't work as you do is what lowers the IQ to room temp. IMO
By the way, I have all my digits.