Council fined £20k for saw injury - Saw Stop would have prevented this

[Jacob]

Yup Deema this is why, as we all know, we have to complete 'box lifting' courses etc - I had to do one online 15 years ago - the main purpose was so the company could win a legal claim if we were ever injured

and why not?

- I can't actually think of anything that course told me that I didn't already know that was not common sense.

You are obviously an unusually sensible person!
Less sensible people actually get their fingers cut off with woodwork machines!! Unbelievable!!

That said, correct training in specialities is crucial I think - this seems where the council failed.

exactly.
I did a brief safety course prior to starting a C&G woodwork. Lifting came into it and I've been doing it properly ever since.

 

[johnnyb]

My concern is training(sort of) but the amount of dangerously made and set up saws. My saw I know is decent quality and well set up.

 

[Drifter2406]

Working to regulations is not always possible, 10 minutes training shows the operator how to use it but it depends on the operator weather he keeps being safe. up until last week i weas employed as a maintenance engineer, attached to that job as I have extensive experience for 40+ years as a woodworker and arborist I had to train the newbies on the saws and router tables, one guy had been working there years and using these machines every day, I walked in and saw him pushing a piece of wood through with his thumb a few millimeters away from the blade I said to him "Why don't you use a push stick or use a bigger piece from the other side"? His answer was, "Your not my manager and I've been doing this years". Even after reporting this to a director who said nothing, approx a couple of weeks later he cut the top of his finger off, you can't teach stupid, and don't get me started on how we had to drive the forklift with a ton and half of board on the front due to lack of space.

 

[Blackswanwood]

Working to regulations is not always possible, 10 minutes training shows the operator how to use it but it depends on the operator weather he keeps being safe. up until last week i weas employed as a maintenance engineer, attached to that job as I have extensive experience for 40+ years as a woodworker and arborist I had to train the newbies on the saws and router tables, one guy had been working there years and using these machines every day, I walked in and saw him pushing a piece of wood through with his thumb a few millimeters away from the blade I said to him "Why don't you use a push stick or use a bigger piece from the other side"? His answer was, "Your not my manager and I've been doing this years". Even after reporting this to a director who said nothing, approx a couple of weeks later he cut the top of his finger off, you can't teach stupid, and don't get me started on how we had to drive the forklift with a ton and half of board on the front due to lack of space.

Sounds like the employer deserves to be prosecuted.

Health and Safety violations is one of the areas where a director cannot rely on saying the company is a different entity. Directors can personally be prosecuted which I believe is quite right.

I don’t understand why this saw stop debate rages on. Surely the best situation is to have good and meaningful training as part of a safety conscious culture in the workplace and a saw stop fitted to further reduce the potential for a rare lapse in concentration resulting in a life changing injury. We wear seat belts and have airbags but (in the vast majority of cases) still try to drive safely.

 

[Doug71]

Only if you replace every saw everywhere, and also develop the technology for spindle and planer too.
Simpler and more cost effective to teach safe practices to start with - they are not difficult to understand. Just "never have your hands nearer than say 10" to an exposed powered cutting edge" for starters.

Jacob I totally agree on teaching safe practises and you know I encourage the use of push sticks as much as anyone but unfortunately people will still do stupid things or things can go wrong. As an employer you must do all you can to protect people so yes training and safe practise first with Saw Stop as the last line of defence.

An employee made a successful claim against us when I was part of an off licence business. She was putting a bottle of wine on a shelf but caught the edge of the shelf breaking the bottle and cutting her hand. Similar to @deema experience we were found to be at fault because we didn't have a written procedure on how to put a bottle on a shelf

If she had done the same thing at home it would be her own fault but she did it at work so we were responsible, it seems crazy but it's how the world works.

 

[Matthew Woodworks]

All this reminds me of why I never wanted to have anyone young and inexperienced in my workshops - apart from sanding - it's a shame as I would have taken on apprentices and it would have been good to pass on skills and knowledge. Oh well

 

[highwood122]

might stop im picking his nose as well

 

[Phil Pascoe]

She was putting a bottle of wine on a shelf but caught the edge of the shelf breaking the bottle ...

I did that once, emptying the contents all over my legs and feet ....................................... it was a gallon of Bells.

 

[cmoops2]

When the saw has been turned on it goes through a self test and if there is anything wrong, blade gap to brake too far, access panel open, etc it flashes warning lights, the colour and frequency corresponding with the fault. If you want to check all is well as the day progresses, WITH SAW OFF you touch the bade and the green light at the switch changes to flashing red signifying that if the blade were spinning the brake would be fired. If it doesn't flash red there is something wrong with the system and it shouldn't be used until corrected. You can go online and read the lengthy manual if you want to know more about how it all works. I've had mine for over 15 years and it has never shown any faults or needed repairs.

Pete

Pete - while I'm not familiar with SAWSTOP, you say that a 'flashing red signifies that if the blade were spinning the brake would be fired'.

Are you saying that a flashing red cuts off the power to the saw ? If it doesn't, aren't we back to square one where training, concentration, common sense, or supervised use come into play ?

 

[Keith 66]

I worked in the education system for 17 years, As a D&T Technician in a 6th form college then the last 5 years in a secondary school.
Educational establishments inc schools are usually highly risk averse. Local education authorities used to have overall responsibility for H&S in schools but the rise of the academy system led to this no longer being so.
BS 4163 is the default H&S document for School workshops & simply states H&S training must be provided but not by who.
In practice this means the only H&S training available to D&T teachers & technicians is that provided by DATA (the Design & Technology Association)
DATA have a fair number of consultants or registered D&T trainers who visit schools & train staff.
A Technician or Teacher starts with a D&T Core H&S course usually two days, then more course modules to cover other machines & processes usually another 2 days. So once you have the core you get Hand tols, Sanding/linishing machines, power hacksaws/metal cutting bandsaws, Heat processes, Polishing buffing machines, plastics moulding processes, power fet saws, portable power tools (drills & sanders only)
Then extension level modules on Wood sawing machines, Bandsaws, Centre lathe, Wood turning lathe, Milling machines, Portable power tools (grinders & such). There are more still. Every machine & tool you use has to be ticked off.

When you start the job the school has to get this done & usually put as many D&T staff through as they can. The problem is as you can imagine time, All that lot done in two days including practical demo & have a go on everything. A Technicians job is poorly paid & will often attract older guys like myself winding down to retirement. Some like myself will have extensive experience of machine tools etc already some wont.
Younger guys & women coming into the job are often totally green & will have never operated any machines in their lives.
Quite often they are scared of the machines & so they should be.
So they do a tick box list while they listen to the instructor & his powerpoint, have a little go & onto the next one, tick the box & again & again.
The tickets last for 5 years then you have to do a refresher course.
None of this is skills training but once the course is done the Techie has a piece of paper that says he/she is qualified to drive this that or the other.
Monday morning they have teachers saying I need 200 bits of plywood X size & 400 bits of wood this long, Oh & i need it next lesson! & so it goes.
When i left my last school job the next techician was a young woman, she lasted two days before walking out in tears. The next guy aged 22 lasted a few months before chopping the top of his finger off on the circular saw, he then left.

Im surprised it doesnt happen more often!









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[MikeJhn]

It shows what people think when they say "Elf" and Safety is shows an unhealthy mind set, the very thought of a company being prosecuted for not having a procedure to put a bottle on a shelf is ridiculous, if the company was prosecuted it was because it did not have sufficient safety procedures in place to train their operatives.

 

[Spectric]

I've had mine for over 15 years and it has never shown any faults or needed repairs.

So in fifteen years have you not been tempted to prove beyond doubt that it would work by giving it say a pork chop ? They say a pig is the nearest thing to human flesh !

 

[Doug71]

It shows what people think when they say "Elf" and Safety is shows an unhealthy mind set, the very thought of a company being prosecuted for not having a procedure to put a bottle on a shelf is ridiculous, if the company was prosecuted it was because it did not have sufficient safety procedures in place to train their operatives.

I could have worded it better Mike, we weren't prosecuted but our insurance company agreed a pay out as we didn't have a written procedure in place on how to put a bottle on a shelf.

 

[Jacob]

.....the very thought of a company being prosecuted for not having a procedure to put a bottle on a shelf is ridiculous,....

But there must have been a problem with the shelves somehow, which would be the company's fault. Otherwise it's difficult to see how you could cut yourself by putting a bottle on a shelf.

 

[TRITON]

Except that the saw is either a Wadkin AGS or a Startrite (both have almost identical fence / similar looking crown guard), both of which have the DOL on the right hand side of the machine. So, he says he switched it off and then noticed his index finger on the table…..so how did he switch the saw off using his right hand and index finger which is what you would / have to use? Is it just me that thinks something isn’t quite right in the reported incident?

Buttons are on the left arent they(left corner abouts)

And i can envision how it happened. He was pushing the workpiece through the saw, right hand between the blade and the fence yeah ? Right finger too far over and ....snip...

Plus Im not sure the reporting of this is as accurate as it could be, which is down to the interpretation of the reporter, who probably has no concept of a saw, its workings or work practise in using one.

 

[deema]

Buttons are on the left arent they(left corner abouts)

And i can envision how it happened. He was pushing the workpiece through the saw, right hand between the blade and the fence yeah ? Right finger too far over and ....snip...

Plus Im not sure the reporting of this is as accurate as it could be, which is down to the interpretation of the reporter, who probably has no concept of a saw, its workings or work practise in using one.

I believe after another hood look at the photo that it’s a Startrite saw, and I may be wrong, but the starter is always on the right hand side as the blade height handle is on the left.

I would have thought he would have cut off his thumb before his finger, and his thumb with his index finger?

 

[Doug71]

But there must have been a problem with the shelves somehow, which would be the company's fault. Otherwise it's difficult to see how you could cut yourself by putting a bottle on a shelf.

Smashed the bottle against the edge of the shelf......... Happened at the end of shift when stocking up, I suspect rushing to get out as quickly as possible.

Regarding the saw in the photo I presumed that it's just a generic photo of a table saw and probably not the one involved in the accident.

 

[Jake]

So in fifteen years have you not been tempted to prove beyond doubt that it would work by giving it say a pork chop ? They say a pig is the nearest thing to human flesh !

With Sawstop (rather than some other similar systems) that would take out the stop that springs into the blade and the blade, so a pricey test.

 

[Spectric]

So we are saying that the only way to test this is a destructive test, that is not good because I would not like to think that rather than positive proof that it works you just need faith. If that was a safety system in an industrial enviroment then it has to be proven to work with an end to end test and there should be no unrevealed failure modes. For me I would be buying an expensive saw with a feature that would never be used or needed simply because I never put my fingers anywhere near the blade knowing the consequences, in fact I would not purchase on the grounds that I do not want my way of thinking or working safely to be compromised by any unwanted thoughts that the saw is safe and cannot do harm especially when the feature cannot be proven without destruction.

 

[TRITON]

might stop im picking his nose as well

Why are you picking his nose, Is this a new fetish thing ?
Ye gads. the things they get up to down Dorset way

I believe after another hood look at the photo that it’s a Startrite saw

If its the pic from the bbc site, i really don't think thats a pic of the actual saw and rather just a stock image.