RogerS
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MikeG.":qc9mxpp2 said:
Agreed. Another one for the Ignore list. Best form of social-distancing going :wink:
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Agreed. Another one for the Ignore list. Best form of social-distancing going :wink:
RobinBHM
Established Member
Blackswanwood":30xpjm33 said:
yes it is, my apologies.
it is rather hard to separate coronavirus from politics -they are closely intertwined, despite the claim of 'science based'.
Trainee neophyte
Established Member
MikeG.":1olry167 said:
I'm so sorry, I didn't understand the conversation. I thought we were talking about off-shoring but it turns out you wanted a simpler conversation, so here we go:
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/30120-i-m-right-and-you-re-wrong-i-m-big-and-you-re-small
That's the thrust of what you wanted to say, I take it? I will happily fall on my sword and admit to your being right, if it makes you feel better. Yes, Mike, there is more than one job in the UK that provides value. Several, in fact. We could go as far as to say "many" in troll counting numerology.
I.
Was.
Wrong.
#-o
Terry - Somerset
Established Member
Reading some of the recent posts a few thoughts come to mind.
Firstly, had the Tories had any intention of privatising or dismantling health care in the UK they would have made far greater progress by now. They have been in government for the last 10 years, and for 17 out of the previous 30 back to the Thatcher era.
They want to be elected (as all parties do) and know the NHS as a concept is highly valued by the public. So suggesting it is "soldoff" would be a complete vote loser. There may be a limited number at the top of the financial tree - but most Tories value the NHS. To suggest otherwise is to cynically use the NHS as a political point scoring exercise.
The second thought relates to the amount of money spent on the NHS. Other countries do things differently and many spend more. I come from a view that if we want to spend more the money has to come from somewhere - either alternative cuts or increased taxation.
However, just imagine the outcry (say) 6 months ago had the press found that there were (say) 10,000 fully kitted beds mothballed, stores full of several normal years supply of consumables, all of which become old, need servicing and testing, past certification dates, etc. This is not an argument not to invest as part of a contingency plan, but we need to be open about the costs and consequences.
Finally to those be-moaning the loss of UK manufacturing and the rise of service industries. This crisis will change and probably reduce global interdependence and lengthy complex supply chains. But with the growth of IT, automation and robotics the real skill lies in design and high tech.
The original rational for moving product manufacture to China etc was lower labour costs. As the labour content of products falls, and the pay level in China increases, offshoring manufacturing no longer makes such good sense. Note the cost of the sophisticated automated kit costs the chinese much the same as elsewhere.
Firstly, had the Tories had any intention of privatising or dismantling health care in the UK they would have made far greater progress by now. They have been in government for the last 10 years, and for 17 out of the previous 30 back to the Thatcher era.
They want to be elected (as all parties do) and know the NHS as a concept is highly valued by the public. So suggesting it is "soldoff" would be a complete vote loser. There may be a limited number at the top of the financial tree - but most Tories value the NHS. To suggest otherwise is to cynically use the NHS as a political point scoring exercise.
The second thought relates to the amount of money spent on the NHS. Other countries do things differently and many spend more. I come from a view that if we want to spend more the money has to come from somewhere - either alternative cuts or increased taxation.
However, just imagine the outcry (say) 6 months ago had the press found that there were (say) 10,000 fully kitted beds mothballed, stores full of several normal years supply of consumables, all of which become old, need servicing and testing, past certification dates, etc. This is not an argument not to invest as part of a contingency plan, but we need to be open about the costs and consequences.
Finally to those be-moaning the loss of UK manufacturing and the rise of service industries. This crisis will change and probably reduce global interdependence and lengthy complex supply chains. But with the growth of IT, automation and robotics the real skill lies in design and high tech.
The original rational for moving product manufacture to China etc was lower labour costs. As the labour content of products falls, and the pay level in China increases, offshoring manufacturing no longer makes such good sense. Note the cost of the sophisticated automated kit costs the chinese much the same as elsewhere.
MikeG.
Established Member
Trainee neophyte":3b45kofi said:
Don't be silly, TN. I gave you two chances to row back from your statement, and you didn't. You doubled-down, as the Americans say (I'm told). This isn't about winning, but about understanding why you would claim all UK jobs were worthless. If the lesson is to not make claims you can't back up, then we're all a winner.
Cheshirechappie
Established Member
Terry - Somerset":1zchh1s9 said:
Interestingly, there is some evidence that's happening already. The UK foundry industry stared to see an upturn in demand two or three years ago (reported in Professional Engineering, the monthly mag. of the Institution of Mechanical Engineers). Reasons given were the increased productivity of remaining UK foundries (same capacity with reduced labour force), transport costs (castings tend to be heavy!), shorter lead-times (transporting something round the globe adds time), quality issues with some imports, along with some falsified QA documentation. One UK manufacturer put it like this; "If you have a quality issue with your casting supplier and they're thirty miles down the road, you can get in your car and have a conversation about it before lunchtime. If your supplier is on the other side of the planet, not so much."
That's balanced, logical and it makes sense. It'll never catch on.Terry - Somerset":28s8h3mq said:
Just finished watching the film 'contagion' The ending scene was a bit close for comfort. It showed a bat sat upon a truss dropping its faeces, then a pig eating it and passing it on to a chef passing it on etc etc. The worlds been turned upside down
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RobinBHM
Established Member
Terry Somerset wrote:
Its not cynical, its reality. Try googling: tufton street, Matthew Elliott, Dr Kristian Niemietz, Capx, taxpayers alliance, Cato institute, Koch foundation. Tufton street connects think tanks (lobby groups) with US business interests, climate change deniers, private healthcare. Elliott is a highly influential advisor with connections to Trump and Koch brothers.
There is a considerable hidden agenda going on, driven by vested self interest.
following every pandemic in history there has been social change, lets hope whatever happens, the outcome is better not worse.
for me personally Im just worried about my niece who works as a radiographer in the NHS and is dealing with covid 19 patients (respiratory damage that is cause by this virus is apparently pretty unique and serious).
Its not cynical, its reality. Try googling: tufton street, Matthew Elliott, Dr Kristian Niemietz, Capx, taxpayers alliance, Cato institute, Koch foundation. Tufton street connects think tanks (lobby groups) with US business interests, climate change deniers, private healthcare. Elliott is a highly influential advisor with connections to Trump and Koch brothers.
There is a considerable hidden agenda going on, driven by vested self interest.
following every pandemic in history there has been social change, lets hope whatever happens, the outcome is better not worse.
for me personally Im just worried about my niece who works as a radiographer in the NHS and is dealing with covid 19 patients (respiratory damage that is cause by this virus is apparently pretty unique and serious).
profchris
Established Member
In some posters I detect the old "manufacturing good, services bad" fallacy. Services is not a zero sum game.
Just as an example, I work on one of the world's most successful (in my own estimation ) postgraduate teaching programmes. I and colleagues work on other things as well, so I estimate that the equivalent of between 60 and 80 full-time people is devoted to offering that programme.
90% of our students come from outside the UK, and I estimate that this generates around £13.5 million of revenue directly from those students (which of course gets spent in the UK economy by those who get a share of it, employees, our building landlord, the local council, outside contractors, etc) and a further £15 million or so which the students spend on rent, food and drinks, clothing, entertainment, etc.
So if 60-80 people generate around £28 million of import earnings, but are useless, there is an interesting underlying definition of "useful" somewhere in the discussion.
Admittedly my area of work is particularly attractive globally, but my colleagues in other areas of my work at my university also generate substantial income of this kind. I can't estimate it with any accuracy, maybe a further £100 million or so.
The same is true of the other UK universities to a greater or lesser extent.
For the UK we import more manufactured goods than we export. We export more services than we import. Our services are generally high value, the goods we import are generally low value.
I can't see that this is intrinsically wrong, and in financial terms it's certainly not valueless.
Just as an example, I work on one of the world's most successful (in my own estimation
) postgraduate teaching programmes. I and colleagues work on other things as well, so I estimate that the equivalent of between 60 and 80 full-time people is devoted to offering that programme.90% of our students come from outside the UK, and I estimate that this generates around £13.5 million of revenue directly from those students (which of course gets spent in the UK economy by those who get a share of it, employees, our building landlord, the local council, outside contractors, etc) and a further £15 million or so which the students spend on rent, food and drinks, clothing, entertainment, etc.
So if 60-80 people generate around £28 million of import earnings, but are useless, there is an interesting underlying definition of "useful" somewhere in the discussion.
Admittedly my area of work is particularly attractive globally, but my colleagues in other areas of my work at my university also generate substantial income of this kind. I can't estimate it with any accuracy, maybe a further £100 million or so.
The same is true of the other UK universities to a greater or lesser extent.
For the UK we import more manufactured goods than we export. We export more services than we import. Our services are generally high value, the goods we import are generally low value.
I can't see that this is intrinsically wrong, and in financial terms it's certainly not valueless.
Trainee neophyte
Established Member
Regarding the perpetual NHS crisis, this may help:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... per_capita
I can't get any of the charts to show, and the table formatting won't paste easily, but the bottom line is that the UK funds significantly less per head of population than most western countries. Suprise, suprise, it is in need of funds. That being said, you would need to compare outcomes to see if it is cost effective - spending at USA rates doesn't mean you get great healthcare, just fleeced.
https://stateofreform.com/wp-content/up ... x-2014.pdf
There is lots of data and tables, but the takehome is UK is 23rd in the list of healthcare outcomes Vs cost per capita, just above Belgium, Greece Chile and Costa Rica. It would seem you get what you pay for.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... per_capita
I can't get any of the charts to show, and the table formatting won't paste easily, but the bottom line is that the UK funds significantly less per head of population than most western countries. Suprise, suprise, it is in need of funds. That being said, you would need to compare outcomes to see if it is cost effective - spending at USA rates doesn't mean you get great healthcare, just fleeced.
https://stateofreform.com/wp-content/up ... x-2014.pdf
There is lots of data and tables, but the takehome is UK is 23rd in the list of healthcare outcomes Vs cost per capita, just above Belgium, Greece Chile and Costa Rica. It would seem you get what you pay for.
sploo
Somewhat extinguished member
Remember that it has to be done covertly; precisely because it would be a vote loser. Much progress has been made, but a major technique is to break something to the degree that people demand it be fixed - then you can finish selling it off as a solution.Terry - Somerset":2j2e4g1z said:
This isn't tinfoil hat stuff; there's plenty of information around about the creeping privatisation of NHS services, and to where some of the contracts are going.
doctor Bob
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This is starting to bring back memories of the brexit thread......................
Thank god I have too much work to do trying to save my business, and helping parents to get involved this time around.
Thank god I have too much work to do trying to save my business, and helping parents to get involved this time around.
Trainee neophyte
Established Member
MikeG.":3m9biasz said:
Hmm. From my side of the conversation, you seized on a throwaway line, completely failed to address anything I was actually trying to say, and patently ignored my attempts to clarify what I thought were the salient points. I wasn't "doubling down" on a trivial bit of hyperbole, and I wasn't trying to assert that every single worker in the UK serves no useful purpose , because that would be so silly as to not even consider contemplating (even though that was what I wrote - I often assume other people know what I am thinking)
So, you think I am making extravagant, overinflated claims, and I think you are being astonishingly pedantic for no purpose. I love the internet - people can completely fail to understand each others positions, despite clearly typing in basic English. Or perhaps it is just me and my inability to make myself understood. It wouldn't be the first time (just ask RogerS
)Either way, you are still right, and I still think it is a trivial and irrelevant point, and I still believe that making things half way around the world just so we won't suffer the pollution is disingenuous, and unsustainable. The good news is that which is unsustainable will not be sustained.
Soul destroying isn't it. I just want things to be back to normal. It's like a horrible dream but not knowing when we will wake up from it. Stay strong Bobdoctor Bob":27c3j1yw said:
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Blackswanwood
Still Learning
doctor Bob":kra0elvl said:
Has the landlord seen sense and been prepared to cut you any slack Bob?
sploo
Somewhat extinguished member
I'm hoping my wife doesn't die due to lack of protective equipment, like quite a few other doctors.doctor Bob":1cmljpid said:
Not dismissing your concerns (which are absolutely valid, and I very much hope things stay afloat) but this is - literally - a life and death topic.
RobinBHM
Established Member
doctor Bob":3kc151ff said:
What you didnt include contingency in your business plans for a worldwide pandemic?
thats awfully shortsighted
seriously, I hope things work out for you - I cant imagine what plans a business can even make right now, this is a situation that changes day by day.
the government 80% scheme for workers is pretty good, but a business needs production to recover its overheads.
Cheshirechappie
Established Member
profchris":2qhe6swl said:
I can't speak for others, but I most emphatically don't subscribe to the idea "manufacturing good, services bad". I'd rather see a balance of the two.
It isn't always clear-cut what's a service and what's manufacturing. For example, the economists class engineering consultancy as a service, but it can't sustain itself without a steady supply of engineers from manufacturing and construction, and close links with them.
That said, we did go through a period of off-shoring some of our manufacturing capability, and at times of crisis we relearn how useful such capacity can be to a developed nation. World economics are changing, and will change more as a result of the current crisis; it would be good to see one of the outcomes being a re-shoring of some of the lost capacity.
Much the same argument can be applied to other sectors of the economy, too - food supply being one. I gather one economist in the Treasury was seriously suggesting that we didn't need an agricultural sector at all before this crisis, and that we could, like Taiwan, import everything; I'd like to think current events have firmly laid that idea to rest.
doctor Bob
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sploo":37kk56n1 said:
My sister is front line NHS, my parents are 87, my wife is a bad asmatic, I'm aware thank you. I to am hoping my family doesn't die, as I'm sure all front line NHS families are hoping. Your wife has my admiration along with all NHS staff, unfortunately this affects everyone. I'm struggling to understand how historical "blaming" saves the day. We need positivity at present, the media is whipping up a frenzy on purpose, now is not the time, do the blame game later.
Just a while back the negative posts, not necessarily on here, about the government asking for help to produce respirators were cringeworthy "impossible" "don't understand time scales" etc yet business with their hands not tied have risen to the challenge spectacularly.
I'm afraid I really am too tired and anxious to see any reason at this point in time to try and blame defects on X. I just want people to get on and do their best, blame can come later as in my opinion it acheives nowt at present.
To answer other questions:
After much haggling, my landlord offered me 25% discount on the next 3 months rent, I was delighed, when he wrote up the new contract he had clawed the money back over the following 9 months, I politely told him he was a ***** and to stick it up his rectum.
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