Combination or separates

[julesbike]

Hi my winter project is to reclaim my garage and create a proper workshop. My wife is now the proud owner of a 15 sqm garden office I built using Douglas fir, so now it's my turn!

I have a 7m X 5m space with 2 sectional up and over doors. I need to store some bikes and garden tools so one of the 5m walls will have big cupboards for those. Otherwise I'll have about 15m of wall space and a large open space in the middle.

Currently tools are mostly festool hand tools with an MFT table. I'd like to move to buying rough timber and building furniture and cupboards.

Ive been lusting over multi function machines like the hammer C3 31. But would I be better buying separate items? The hammer looks like something that you put in the middle of the room and it never moves. I assume with smaller individual machines you can wheel them around depending on what you are working on.

Interested in your thoughts.

I'll post process in the workshop forum once I get going. Slow and steady. The cabin took 1 year.

 

[Doug B]

my workshops not huge so I went for a compromise rather than a full combi or all separates, I went for a planer/thicknesser & a saw/spindle moulder both machines are on mobile bases so I can move them to the wall when not in use to free up space, I’ve been very happy with how they’ve worked out.

 

[julesbike]

my workshops not huge so I went for a compromise rather than a full combi or all separates, I went for a planer/thicknesser & a saw/spindle moulder both machines are on mobile bases so I can move them to the wall when not in use to free up space, I’ve been very happy with how they’ve worked out.

yes I was thinking the same plus a band saw and chop saw. I was just looking at the felder site and it looks like their smallest table saw has a spindle. I have used a friend's workshop and he has separates.. the only concern is the planer thicknesser seems that swapping between the 2 involves lowering the table each time for the dust extraction. Is this a pain or do you just learn to work in batches.

 

[clogs]

combination machine are always a comprimise......
this is mine, all 2 tons of it.....and obviously 3phase.....
it all depends on the room u have......

I prefer seperate machines but again u need a lot of extra room......
dont know about the Hammer model u mentioned but a lot have limited motors, even the not so cheapies need belts swopping.....
prefer 1 motor per mode but some have the spindle running at the same time as the planer.....[the spindle shaft can be lowered under the surface of the machine and has security cover....
also, some to change from a jointer/planner to thicknesser mode u have to flip tables....another pain....

you really need to find the machine u want then use it in all modes before u buy.......dont be in a rush.....

 

[Doug B]

yes I was thinking the same plus a band saw and chop saw. I was just looking at the felder site and it looks like their smallest table saw has a spindle. I have used a friend's workshop and he has separates.. the only concern is the planer thicknesser seems that swapping between the 2 involves lowering the table each time for the dust extraction. Is this a pain or do you just learn to work in batches.

Whilst swapping from planing to thicknessing does take a minute or so for me as I usually need to move the machines towards the centre of the workshop to Maximise space it took longer when I had separates moving machines than it does swapping functions on the P/T, for me it was all about maximising space.
I don’t know if Felder/Hammer have a showroom near you but it’s really worth going & seeing their machines, I have their small Hammer saw /spindle, it’s fairly basic but has done everything I’ve asked of it over the last 3 years.

 

[julesbike]

combination machine are always a comprimise......
this is mine, all 2 tons of it.....and obviously 3phase.....
it all depends on the room u have......View attachment 97739
I prefer seperate machines but again u need a lot of extra room......
dont know about the Hammer model u mentioned but a lot have limited motors, even the not so cheapies need belts swopping.....
prefer 1 motor per mode but some have the spindle running at the same time as the planer.....[the spindle shaft can be lowered under the surface of the machine and has security cover....
also, some to change from a jointer/planner to thicknesser mode u have to flip tables....another pain....

you really need to find the machine u want then use it in all modes before u buy.......dont be in a rush.....

that is a beast! I think the transporter would have a heart attack trying to get that up my drive . the hammer has individual motors afaik. yes I'll definitely visit a dealer first.

 

[julesbike]

Whilst swapping from planing to thicknessing does take a minute or so for me as I usually need to move the machines towards the centre of the workshop to Maximise space it took longer when I had separates moving machines than it does swapping functions on the P/T, for me it was all about maximising space.
I don’t know if Felder/Hammer have a showroom near you but it’s really worth going & seeing their machines, I have their small Hammer saw /spindle, it’s fairly basic but has done everything I’ve asked of it over the last 3 years.

yes that makes sense moving machines always takes time. talking of which, what hammer model is it? how easy is it to move around.

 

[Mrs C]

Separates if you have got the space.

If you have to go combi have a look at how much of one tool you have to move use another. I think that the real pain would be setting your spindle, changing to the saw only to find you need to run another piece through the spindle but have lost the setting.

I think that Felder do a quick change spindle head which I am assuming goes back in set to the same height that it came out of. This might make life better.

Swapping between top and bottom on a p/t is ok. I like being able to see what is being fed into the thicknesser which the lifting tables allow, this isn’t so easy on a fixed table machine.

 

[Yojevol]

yes I was thinking the same plus a band saw and chop saw. I was just looking at the felder site and it looks like their smallest table saw has a spindle. I have used a friend's workshop and he has separates.. the only concern is the planer thicknesser seems that swapping between the 2 involves lowering the table each time for the dust extraction. Is this a pain or do you just learn to work in batches.

Yes I do, or rather did, find it a pain, so much so I've now abandoned the thicknesser on my Felder and replaced it with a stand alone thicknesser. It's a 12" Record which is good for 99.9% of my work. For the other 0.1% I have to resort to the 14" Felder. I bought the machine new but I always regret not splashing out for the mechanised thicknesser platen rise and fall optional extra. It would have been a better investment than the extra 2" on the planer width.
Brian

 

[Mike Jordan]

An under and over planer thicknesser without lift up tables is my choice. British cast iron will outlast any Chinese rubbish and give a lifetime of service. My Sedgewick MB has done 45 years and cost me one drive belt. Yes they are expensive but you get what you pay for. AIl my machines are separate on the grounds that combination machines are a collection of compromises, usually access to all four sides is required so it takes up more room than you may expect. My total contribution to the Far Eastern economy are a band saw and lathe, both of which have a British label stuck on. Two professional users of my acquaintance have worn out Chinese machines and been forced to buy replacements, opinions may be changing regarding these machines and the supposed value they offer. Second hand machines can be good buys providing they haven't been "reconditioned" with just a spray gun.


A

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Ive been lusting over multi function machines like the hammer C3 31. But would I be better buying separate items? The hammer looks like something that you put in the middle of the room and it never moves. I assume with smaller individual machines you can wheel them around depending on what you are working on.

I have had a Hammer A3-31 jointer/thicknesser for about 7 or 8 years. Spiral head. 305mm wide. My workshop is half of a double garage, so space is a factor. I love this machine for its superior performance in a reasonably affordable package, and one that simply requires that you do need to plan your work order. Separates benefit space and one disinclined to be organised I do not miss the separates I had before.

The tablesaw is a separate machine. In my case, a short stroke Hammer K3 with 1250 slider.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[julesbike]

I have had a Hammer A3-31 jointer/thicknesser for about 7 or 8 years. Spiral head. 305mm wide. My workshop is half of a double garage, so space is a factor. I love this machine for its superior performance in a reasonably affordable package, and one that simply requires that you do need to plan your work order. Separates benefit space and one disinclined to be organised I do not miss the separates I had before.

The tablesaw is a separate machine. In my case, a short stroke Hammer K3 with 1250 slider.

Regards from Perth

Derek

thanks Derek nice to see how you have made everything mobile. There is something satisfactory about having a single brand. I've tried to stick with festool and have mostly regretted when I deviated. I agree with Jordan about quality so I'm hoping hammer are the equivalent of festool for larger machines.

Is the table saw mobile too? In the hammer promo videos they show the handle that allows you to pivot the table but I've only seen people moving it a forward and backwards a small amount.

thanks

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Hi Jules

The Hammer K3 is a fantastic slider. Yes, it is on wheels, although I am not sure you would want to push it around. Heavy. Here is an older photo ...

You could say that mine is a combo machine as I have built a router table onto the outfeed side ...

Both the tablesaw rip fence and the router table fence (which I made) use JessEm guides (brilliant!) ...

This is a very tricked out set up. If you know a little about me, I modify everything!

I have added a Power Tool and Machinery section to my website, which has focussed on hand tools for 20 years. There will be many (a lot!) of power tool mods and tune ups posted there, along with joinery, etc.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Powered Tools and Machinery/index.html
Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Illy]

Slightly off topic but the first thing I did in my garage was to change to side hinged doors instead of up and over. This enabled me to install a sill with better weatherproofing and put insulation board on the inside of the doors. The result was a comfortable temperature throughout the winter - a massive improvement.

I do note the original poster is from France though, so the climate will be different from Northern England !!

 

[julesbike]

Slightly off topic but the first thing I did in my garage was to change to side hinged doors instead of up and over. This enabled me to install a sill with better weatherproofing and put insulation board on the inside of the doors. The result was a comfortable temperature throughout the winter - a massive improvement.

I do note the original poster is from France though, so the climate will be different from Northern England !!

Yes the sliding doors are well insulated and I live in the south of France so heat is more a problem . But the annoyance with up and over is that the roof space is unusable. Cost a fortune with motors etc..so will have to live with.

 

[julesbike]

Hi Jules

The Hammer K3 is a fantastic slider. Yes, it is on wheels, although I am not sure you would want to push it around. Heavy. Here is an older photo ...

You could say that mine is a combo machine as I have built a router table onto the outfeed side ...

Both the tablesaw rip fence and the router table fence (which I made) use JessEm guides (brilliant!) ...

This is a very tricked out set up. If you know a little about me, I modify everything!

I have added a Power Tool and Machinery section to my website, which has focussed on hand tools for 20 years. There will be many (a lot!) of power tool mods and tune ups posted there, along with joinery, etc.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Powered Tools and Machinery/index.html
Regards from Perth

Derek

thanks Derek your website is very useful I'll have a good read

 

[Doug B]

yes that makes sense moving machines always takes time. talking of which, what hammer model is it? how easy is it to move around.

The P/T is an A3-41 the saw/spindle a B3 both of which I made mobile bases for as the factory fit option is one directional so didn’t give the ease of movement I wanted.

 

[MikeJhn]

+1 for the jessEm guides, I too have them on my table saw and router table and can't fault them.

 

[beech1948]

Ask Felder. Seriously.

My combo a Felder BF required a 5mx5m space around it. Thats to be able to operate it with timber infeeds and outfeeds. So your 7mx5m space will only have a free 2mx5m space at the back.

If you have the space then combos are fine and dandy. If you are tight on space you will regret it for ever.

 

[julesbike]

Ask Felder. Seriously.

My combo a Felder BF required a 5mx5m space around it. Thats to be able to operate it with timber infeeds and outfeeds. So your 7mx5m space will only have a free 2mx5m space at the back.

If you have the space then combos are fine and dandy. If you are tight on space you will regret it for ever.

yes I think I've pretty much concluded a mobile setup of separates will be the way forward. I'm a bit disappointed that the hammer table saw does not have a better solution for moving around.