Collector anonymous

[bugbear]

The reason for amassing such a large amount of items is not collecting as such , but more an attempt to create a working archive for people to study.

I had forgotten that point - studying one old tool is fine and interesting.

But being able to look at a range (either across time, makers, regions or whatever), allows valuable information about lines of development to be seen.

This is only possible in a large, well documented collection. This may sound like a museum. Yes, museums have collections.

BugBear

 

[AndyT]

But not so many museums have collections of tools on display.

For example, the Science Museum owns a lot of tools but last time I visited I couldn't see any.
The museum in St Albans owns the collection of the late RA Salaman - author of two superb dictionaries of tools - but they are all in storage, not accessible to the ordinary visitor.

Richard's collection is superb - and it's great for the rest of us that he does so much to share it with us.

The most significant UK tool collection is of course that of the late Ken Hawley, who personally rescued thousands of items of Sheffield's history from the skip, the scrap man and the bonfire.
Fortunately that story has a happy ending and some of the collection is easily seen at Kelham Island, where a crew of volunteers look after it.

 

[shed9]

Approaching this from the other side, I have been collecting 18th century woodworking tools, mainly planes, for over 20 years now, and the "collection" possibly amounts to over a thousand artifacts.

:shock:

I'd love to see that.

As to where this archive may end up in the future is proving to be a bit of a headache, as my initial enquiries to date have drawn a bit of a blank, with no suitable institutions in the uk that have shown much interest..

I can strangely see how that is a reality and I do hope you resolve this.

 

[shed9]

But not so many museums have collections of tools on display.

Maybe a museum is not the right path for this type of collection, maybe bolting something onto a school or collection of schools and regarded individuals.

 

[AndyT]

To shed9 and anyone else who's interested in Richard's collection.
Since 2014, Richard has held a summer open day at his workshop where his collection - and much more besides - has been accessible. (These days have also raised thousands of pounds for Macmillan Cancer Support.)

This thread has some pictures from the first one, though Photobucket has removed some pics.

workshop-open-week-end-charity-event-update-t78163.html?hilit=Charity%20open&start=30

I also recommend looking at his posts on Instagram - you can see them without signing up if you prefer
https://www.instagram.com/arnold_richard/

 

[nabs]

Hopefully the Salaman collection will go back on display when the new St Albans museum is complete.

I think Richard's point on pricing is evidence that interest from whatever quarter, collectors or users, results in items that would have been dumped/sat unloved on a shelf somewhere going into circulation in a way that benefits everyone.

The years of effort that have gone into collections of the type put together by Richard, Salaman and others are important -and these two examples specifically are good examples of collecting with the best intentions. To be applauded IMO!

PS in the interst of full disclosure, as far as I know I am not a collector of anything apart from bad habits. I do have three #4 bench planes though

 

[AndyT]

I have just looked at the website for the new museum and it's very close to reaching its fundraising target

http://www.stalbansmuseumsandgalleriest ... st-albans/

And the video of the curator specifically mentions the Salaman Collection, so finger crossed for a big reopening this year.

 

[Tasky]

As to whether "collectors" are inflating prices, I'm not so sure, as over the years I have observed a steady decline in value for most collectable woodworking tools. As an example, my Norris panel plane at one point would have possibly fetched a four figure sum, but in recent times it would struggle to make £400.00 pounds.

Prices are just what people will pay for things.
If you're talking "collector's items" like coins or cars, the prices are always high... and yet the actual value given them by whatever experts or official sources there are on the subject tends to be massively lower.
A MkII Supra is valued at maybe a few hundred quid, but the price of them is past £10,000 because collectors will pay that much.

 

[bugbear]

As to whether "collectors" are inflating prices, I'm not so sure, as over the years I have observed a steady decline in value for most collectable woodworking tools. As an example, my Norris panel plane at one point would have possibly fetched a four figure sum, but in recent times it would struggle to make £400.00 pounds.

Prices are just what people will pay for things.
If you're talking "collector's items" like coins or cars, the prices are always high... and yet the actual value given them by whatever experts or official sources there are on the subject tends to be massively lower.
A MkII Supra is valued at maybe a few hundred quid, but the price of them is past £10,000 because collectors will pay that much.

If the "expert valuers" aren't predicting the actual prices, I wouldn't call them "expert".

BugBear

 

[MarkDennehy]

The word "collector" covers a huge range of different behaviours. The behaviour I see most often amongst woodworkers is "completionism", the urge to complete a set.

*looks at the spare spot on his wall where a Record 02 would go*

Oh bugger.

 

[D_W]

One more spoof definition:
* collector - someone who buys something for more than you'll pay
* user - someone who wanted to buy something you have two of, but won't pay as much as you

 

[Tasky]

If the "expert valuers" aren't predicting the actual prices, I wouldn't call them "expert".

A Krugerrand is 1 troy oz. of fine gold.
The value of 1oz of gold, at this time of checking, is £940.12. Therefore, the value of a Krugerrand is supposed to be the same, which is the whole point of them.
The price at which many of them actually sold in the last week or so is as high as £2,069.55.

That's what I mean by the difference and collectors paying over the odds - Most of these are nothing special and collectors are just looking to fill in the date gaps in their collections.

 

[shed9]

If the "expert valuers" aren't predicting the actual prices, I wouldn't call them "expert".

A Krugerrand is 1 troy oz. of fine gold.
The value of 1oz of gold, at this time of checking, is £940.12. Therefore, the value of a Krugerrand is supposed to be the same, which is the whole point of them.
The price at which many of them actually sold in the last week or so is as high as £2,069.55.

That's what I mean by the difference and collectors paying over the odds - Most of these are nothing special and collectors are just looking to fill in the date gaps in their collections.

Some limited proofed coins fetch high premiums but's that's due to the limited nature of them. Standard Krugerrands are typically 6-8% over base price but then they are minted, certified and easy to sell.

The Krugerrand was never meant to be a straight £ for £ gold purchase, that was not the point of them then or now. It was a marketing ploy by the RSA that proved to be hugely successful and at one point accounting for almost the entire gold coin investment market worldwide.

Not sure this example explains the follies of collecting. If anything it highlights the success of a country and an industry, in part, based on collecting.

 

[D_W]

Krugerrands were not permissible here in the 1980s, I suppose due to apartheid, but they were common. My mother's brother convinced my father to buy a bunch and bury them without writing down their locations or telling anyone where they are. I guess that was everyones' little adventure in thinking "ooh...we're doing something illegal....we buy krugerrands and go 3 miles an hour above the speed limit, and occasionally only come to a rolling stop at a stop sign"

 

[Tasky]

The Krugerrand was never meant to be a straight £ for £ gold purchase, that was not the point of them then or now.

Actually, that's precisely what it's for - "The krugerrand was originally a one-ounce piece of 22 carat gold with no monetary value imprinted on it; its value is based upon the market gold price that frequently fluctuates".
The fact that people pay insane money just to possess these things is nothing to do with their intended purpose, as evidenced by those who continue to invest in Krugerrand. Yes, there are usually admin/handling fees

It was a marketing ploy by the RSA that proved to be hugely successful and at one point accounting for almost the entire gold coin investment market worldwide.

But it was specifically to market South African gold as investment, which I understand is VAT exempt in the EU and probably elsewhere. Nothing to do with being coins or collecting.

Not sure this example explains the follies of collecting. If anything it highlights the success of a country and an industry, in part, based on collecting.

It illustrates the point quite well, I think...
"Users" invest in the Krugerrand for its gold value and may well pay 6-8% over base price.
"Collectors" want one or more complete sets, comprising one of each year plus one of each special edition, to complete the set and will pay more than double the base price.

 

[D_W]

It's not a one ounce piece, though. It's one ounce of gold, plus more copper (so that it's not too soft).

Right now, it's ask is about 3% higher than gold bullion. The actual offers are almost the same as gold bullion, though - less than a percent apart.

i'd never buy either, but I think it's interesting to watch other people do it. it's less interesting watch my dad do it, because he's guessing and taking advice from people who are not smart enough to invest in the open market and leave their investments alone until they want to spend them.

 

[shed9]

Actually, that's precisely what it's for - "The krugerrand was originally a one-ounce piece of 22 carat gold with no monetary value imprinted on it; its value is based upon the market gold price that frequently fluctuates".
The fact that people pay insane money just to possess these things is nothing to do with their intended purpose, as evidenced by those who continue to invest in Krugerrand. Yes, there are usually admin/handling fees

All bullion coinage is sold at premium even if at a small percentage. What business model could sustain manufacture, administration, authority, storage and logistics at the base price of the material used? Anything in the precious metals market that is certified comes at premium.

But it was specifically to market South African gold as investment, which I understand is VAT exempt in the EU and probably elsewhere. Nothing to do with being coins or collecting.

Clearly this is investment and specifically pushes RSA gold, hence the Kruger / Rand aspect. I think we agree there so not sure what your retort was meant to achieve?

It illustrates the point quite well, I think...
"Users" invest in the Krugerrand for its gold value and may well pay 6-8% over base price.
"Collectors" want one or more complete sets, comprising one of each year plus one of each special edition, to complete the set and will pay more than double the base price.

Limited / proof runs of coins hold value for these very reasons. I fail to see how you can differentiate a user from a collector when both end products have a defined and reliable value within the same market.

 

[shed9]

double post

 

[bugbear]

It illustrates the point quite well, I think...
"Users" invest in the Krugerrand for its gold value and may well pay 6-8% over base price.
"Collectors" want one or more complete sets, comprising one of each year plus one of each special edition, to complete the set and will pay more than double the base price.

On the assumption that "other coins of 1Oz gold are available", the collectors won't be distorting the user market, since to a user, all certified 1Oz blobs of gold are interchangeable.

BugBear

 

[Tasky]

he's guessing and taking advice from people who are not smart enough to invest in the open market and leave their investments alone until they want to spend them.

Pretty much anyone is guessing though, aren't they?
There are informed guesses, perhaps, but it's still guessing - If it weren't, experienced investors wouldn't still be losing so much money on their investments. Others advise investing by buying actual gold over merely investing 'in gold', because it's more stable and subject to fewer influences.

Could be worse - It could be BitCoin!!

All bullion coinage is sold at premium even if at a small percentage. What business model could sustain manufacture, administration, authority, storage and logistics at the base price of the material used? Anything in the precious metals market that is certified comes at premium.

Yes, everything has a premium that the companies apply (currently about 4%, it seems), both reduction in buying from you and increase in selling to you... But for the average person on the street, it is a 1oz piece of gold and as a benchmark it is worth (near enough) whatever the ounce value is of that gold.
Even Proof Krugerrands are valued at £1250-odd and that's maybe a 20% premium.

The premium is a given, though, just like postage & packing and can be assumed a feature of transacting, but does not form part of the actual value of the item itself.

The difference in collecting versus merely using is where people pay well over the market value for something.
For instance, I could buy a plain black t-shirt for a tenner. It's worth a tenner and that's it... but if I get it worn by Brad Pitt for one short 20-second scene in a movie - The actual value does not change, but collectors will pay well over $1,000 for it.

Clearly this is investment and specifically pushes RSA gold, hence the Kruger / Rand aspect. I think we agree there so not sure what your retort was meant to achieve?

No investor is going to pay the collector price of £1900 for a Proof Krugerrand that is only valued at £1200.
That was the point.

Limited / proof runs of coins hold value for these very reasons. I fail to see how you can differentiate a user from a collector when both end products have a defined and reliable value within the same market.

To the collector, an item may be worth a lot, but also collectors items are usually only worth that to a collector.
To everyone else, it's worth the basic value, which is usually substantially less.
This is why I cited a niche-market 'collectors' car earlier - Most people would pay maybe £500 for the rotting pile of junk parked outside my mate's garage, because that's all it's market-valued at, while a collector might pay as much as £11,000.
Collector prices are more like auction prices, when comparing them to the actual value. This is why I cited the Router Plane, although it seems Aldi Chisels are just as good - They're worth £8. You can buy them yourself. But slap on "As recommended by Paul Sellers" in your auction title, you can up the price by more than three times, because collectors will buy that.

On the assumption that "other coins of 1Oz gold are available", the collectors won't be distorting the user market, since to a user, all certified 1Oz blobs of gold are interchangeable.

The trouble is that, because collectors will pay that much and so dealers can make more, gold coins will rise in sales price.