Collector anonymous

[nabs]

(in the UK) are there actually any commonly used hand tools that have become rare (for whatever reason)?

I'd say 'no' (including the router planes that Tasky keeps banging on about!).

As said above, interest in hand tools, no matter what the reason, actually increases the supply as tools that would have otherwise ended up in skip/on the fire/on a shelf are offered for sale.

To answer the OP's question, I'd say a collector will make a purchase because of the pleasure of ownership, thrill of the chase etc and needs no other justification. And if that floats their boat, good for them

 

[Tasky]

I'd say 'no' (including the router planes that Tasky keeps banging on about!).

Depends how you define 'rare'...
I cite routers as just the first thing I can think of that I had trouble finding (got one now), probably because I was on the tail end of a Sellers Fan Wave.

But anything that lots of people may own, yet hardly ever comes on the market, could be also considered rare - In the same way a particular specialist plane that was only ever made for a few years might be.
Plus they don't last forever and for every rusted up No 4 that gets lovingly restored, there's probably 2 or 3 that rust beyond recovery.

 

[sunnybob]

A collector is someone who pays full retail (or more) for something, just because he can.

My pet hate is motorcycle collectors. I have seen barns FILLED with British motorcycles that cant possibly be ever used, and are hidden away under massive security because they are "worth" so much to other collectors.

If they were on the open market, i might then be able to afford one of them.

 

[thetyreman]

A collector is someone who pays full retail (or more) for something, just because he can.

My pet hate is motorcycle collectors. I have seen barns FILLED with British motorcycles that cant possibly be ever used, and are hidden away under massive security because they are "worth" so much to other collectors.

If they were on the open market, i might then be able to afford one of them.

:lol:

 

[bugbear]

A collector is someone who pays full retail (or more) for something, just because he can.

My pet hate is motorcycle collectors. I have seen barns FILLED with British motorcycles that cant possibly be ever used, and are hidden away under massive security because they are "worth" so much to other collectors.

If they were on the open market, i might then be able to afford one of them.

They are on the open market. You just can't afford them!

BugBear

 

[D_W]

A collector is someone who pays full retail (or more) for something, just because he can.

My pet hate is motorcycle collectors. I have seen barns FILLED with British motorcycles that cant possibly be ever used, and are hidden away under massive security because they are "worth" so much to other collectors.

If they were on the open market, i might then be able to afford one of them.

Your collectors over there are different than ours over here. Some of the collectors here are cutthroat and dishonest and will lie to pay as little as they can.

I'm not familiar with the type who show up to Brown's auction and spend $25,000 on a plane, but those people probably aren't at the auction, anyway.

 

[profchris]

I honestly can't see that tool collectors drive up prices. Is there a hand tool which you can't buy a working example of for substantially less than half the price of an equivalent new tool? Obviously historic tools, no longer made, are exceptions, so I guess I have some (slight) sympathy for someone who wants a Norris smoother as a purely working tool but can't get one for £30 ...

Pure collectors, i.e. those who won't use their tools because it diminishes their originality/condition, are looking at maybe only 1% of sales, probably less. That has no effect on prices in the rest of the market.

 

[sunnybob]

A collector is someone who pays full retail (or more) for something, just because he can.

My pet hate is motorcycle collectors. I have seen barns FILLED with British motorcycles that cant possibly be ever used, and are hidden away under massive security because they are "worth" so much to other collectors.

If they were on the open market, i might then be able to afford one of them.

They are on the open market. You just can't afford them!

BugBear

In 1968, I owned two BSA rocket gold stars, as well as a couple of other BSA twins. They were each the same price as roughly three weeks wages or less (one 650 cost me a tenner because the seat was ripped).
when i got married in 72, I had to GIVE them away because no one would buy them.
A RGS is now for sale at £24,000, and no, I cant find that kind of money in any way short of robbing a bank, so yes i blame collectors.

I spoke to a "collector" about his perfect Gold star on the exhibition stand and asked him how often he rode it. his answer was "its too valuable to ride".
I rest my case.

The same thing applies to tools, but on a reduced scale thats all.

 

[shed9]

In 1968, I owned two BSA rocket gold stars, as well as a couple of other BSA twins. They were each the same price as roughly three weeks wages or less (one 650 cost me a tenner because the seat was ripped).
when i got married in 72, I had to GIVE them away because no one would buy them.
A RGS is now for sale at £24,000, and no, I cant find that kind of money in any way short of robbing a bank, so yes i blame collectors.

I spoke to a "collector" about his perfect Gold star on the exhibition stand and asked him how often he rode it. his answer was "its too valuable to ride".
I rest my case.

The same thing applies to tools, but on a reduced scale thats all.

Do you not see the contradictory nature of your complaint though? They may have had a disposable value in 1972, but thanks to collectors and enthusiasts there are still working examples around now. Yes they cost significantly more but this market does not exist to sell you your nostalgia back to you at a convenient moment for a reasonable price.

I suspect they fetch circa £24,000 because someone or a number of someones cared enough to keep an early sixties bike in their collective possessions for over 50 years. That includes all the storage, transport, accumulative repairs and maintenance. This would not have been predominantly down to collectors but I suspect they've played an important part in this process.

 

[nabs]

yep - collectors preserve the overall levels of "stock" by buying up good items and looking after them. Interest drives up demand and as a result some items that would have been scrapped are saved, but over a long enough period stock levels decrease due to wear an tear and the price goes up.

frustrating if you want an inexpensive BSA Gold Star but not really relevant to UK based hand-tool woodworkers where there is an abundant supply of good quality old tools.

 

[sunnybob]

The main pint has slightly gone astray. A collection for the sake of having a collection is a bad thing.
Bikes, cars, or tools, a collection that is never used and cannot be accessed by many is worthless except to the collector.

tools that are taken out of circulation drive up the price of the remainder. Luckily with old tools the prices are still mostly in the affordable band.

I think i remember this quote correctly, even after many years, but here goes;
A collector knows the price of everything, but the value of nothing.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

There's another angle.

Collectors have pushed up the prices of some older tools to the point where others feel they can fill a gap making new copies, or similar versions. Thus, users now have the choice to buy vintage or new.

If second hand tools in good usable order were readily available and cheap, there would be no (or a much smaller) market for new versions. Thus, maybe the collectors have done all of us a favour.

 

[custard]

The word "collector" covers a huge range of different behaviours. The behaviour I see most often amongst woodworkers is "completionism", the urge to complete a set. So if there are a dozen different widths of chisel produced by a manufacturer then many woodworkers feel they're inadequately equipped unless they have all twelve.

Will a woodworker's projects suffer if there are chisel sizing gaps in their toolbox? Not really.

Is that the best use of a budding woodworker's budget? I doubt it.

Is set completing a sin? Don't be daft, no-one dies.

 

[shed9]

The main pint has slightly gone astray. A collection for the sake of having a collection is a bad thing.
Bikes, cars, or tools, a collection that is never used and cannot be accessed by many is worthless except to the collector.

I appreciate your point of view sunnybob, but the lack of use of that tool is only during the period of that collectors ownership, it's not forever. Maybe those bikes, cars or tools would not exist in the now and the future if it weren't for collectors being involved in the flow of ownership.

Also not sure that a collection for the sake of collection is negative. Where do you draw the line? Somethings have no actual use other than being collected.

 

[bugbear]

I appreciate your point of view sunnybob, but the lack of use of that tool is only during the period of that collectors ownership, it's not forever.

Some things are too precious, and the knowledge they embody too rare, to be used, and eventually used up.

Surely no-one would advocate hauling the Benjamin Seaton tools out of their chest, giving them a quick blast on a grinder, and using them?

BugBear

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I think i remember this quote correctly, even after many years, but here goes;
A collector knows the price of everything, but the value of nothing.

It was Oscar Wilde that famously said “What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing”

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I appreciate your point of view sunnybob, but the lack of use of that tool is only during the period of that collectors ownership, it's not forever.

Some things are too precious, and the knowledge they embody too rare, to be used, and eventually used up.

Surely no-one would advocate hauling the Benjamin Seaton tools out of their chest, giving them a quick blast on a grinder, and using them?

BugBear

Perhaps not, but more than one person has made careful study of Seaton's tools, made (as close as they can) replicas, and used those. In some cases, offering them for sale.

Seaton's tools may never be used, but the fact that they still exist to study is a great deal better than just having references in literature.

 

[profchris]

I appreciate your point of view sunnybob, but the lack of use of that tool is only during the period of that collectors ownership, it's not forever.

Some things are too precious, and the knowledge they embody too rare, to be used, and eventually used up.

Surely no-one would advocate hauling the Benjamin Seaton tools out of their chest, giving them a quick blast on a grinder, and using them?

BugBear

Perhaps not, but more than one person has made careful study of Seaton's tools, made (as close as they can) replicas, and used those. In some cases, offering them for sale.

Seaton's tools may never be used, but the fact that they still exist to study is a great deal better than just having references in literature.

I think all three of you are on the same side of this argument.

One day we'll invent a material which can only be worked with one of those Stanley fibreboard planes, and then we'll all thank the collectors because otherwise they'd all be in landfill

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I think all three of you are on the same side of this argument.

One day we'll invent a material which can only be worked with one of those Stanley fibreboard planes, and then we'll all thank the collectors because otherwise they'd all be in landfill

Indeed - pretty much.

Fibreboard planes do indeed have a use. They can crop up in those 'What's it for?' articles having a photo of a ******* hook, 19th century mole trap or similar. They could be quite a good puzzle, because very few people found a use for them first time round!

 

[richarnold]

As a user, and a "collector of woodworking tools, I have found this an interesting discussion. Some of the tools I use in my everyday work, IE Norris, and other infill planes would be perhaps considered collectors items, and on occasion I have been told that I should perhaps not be using them for everyday use, but as they are cared for, I see no harm in using them.
Approaching this from the other side, I have been collecting 18th century woodworking tools, mainly planes, for over 20 years now, and the "collection" possibly amounts to over a thousand artifacts. the reason for amassing such a large amount of items is not collecting as such , but more an attempt to create a working archive for people to study. As to where this archive may end up in the future is proving to be a bit of a headache, as my initial enquiries to date have drawn a bit of a blank, with no suitable institutions in the uk that have shown much interest. For now the collection is serving its purpose, in that people interested in this field can contact me for information, images, and measurement's. This has already proved useful for some modern plane makers wanting to reproduce 18th century copies.
As to whether "collectors" are inflating prices, I'm not so sure, as over the years I have observed a steady decline in value for most collectable woodworking tools. As an example, my Norris panel plane at one point would have possibly fetched a four figure sum, but in recent times it would struggle to make £400.00 pounds. 18th century collectable woodworking planes now sell for a pitiful amount. In the 80's and 90's a Robert Wooding moulding plane would have set you back in the region of 3-400 pounds. they now sell at auction for as little as £70.00.