Cold workshops and hot houses

[blackteaonesugar]

My workshop is freezing cold. I mean one day last winter I checked the temperature in there, then I checked it inside the fridge.
The fridge was very slightly warmer...

Depending on what you're making, or more so what you're making it with, this can be a concern or not much of a worry.

I've got to make an internal door in Oak and the time of year I'm doing it has made me question whether it's a good idea. Whether I should try and put it off.

The timber is kiln dried, but stored in a yard where it's basically inside a barn with icy winds free to come and go as they please.

The moisture content is somewhere around 15% or so.
The house it's supposed to go into though is sooo hot.

I visited the other day and where the door is going they have underfloor heating and I felt like I was sweating just standing there chatting!
I cannot believe how high some people have their heating!

The door is a sliding door, so not on hinges etc, but it still has me worried that it'll go like a banana as soon as it goes from my cold workshop into this very warm house.

Is this something others worry about here? Anything I can do to reduce potential issues?

 

[Spectric]

You need heat in the workshop, I like to get my wood being used in the house, in the house for a few weeks before starting work on it to let it climatise and try and keep it indoors before fitting so it keeps its shape which can mean moving it around but I think it pays off.

 

[blackteaonesugar]

Yeah, can't do that really. The workshop is basically an uninsulated industrial type building.
I use an infra-red heater and layer up myself and keep moving to keep myself from dying of hypothermia but it never really warms the building this time of year, never mind the timber.
I go home at night and everything goes super cold.

 

[Sachakins]

I'd put it off. Explain what is likely to happen if you do it now, if they still want it doing, explain it's against your advice and you won't be responsible for any issues after fitting.

 

[MARK.B.]

It will look stunning when fitted but very high chance's that you will get a call within a very short space of time from one unhappy customer, if it's for a friend just be honest an tell em OK can do but not until it's warmer an they can lump it or like it , if a paying customer try telling them OK can do but working flat out at the mo so can you wait till April ish when i should be able to fit you in . Both options could loose you the job which would suck but that would be better than trying to sort out a warped door as that could mean multiple visits etc all adding to your costs which if you cannot fix it will all have to come out of your wallet and you still owe them a door to boot.
Sorry if that seems a bit on the down the down side but i have been bitten by this before and it was not nice at all

 

[baldkev]

Grain orientation plays a big part ( where in the tree the timber was cut from )
As spectric said, ideally the timber needs to live in similar conditions to its final home..... if you cant leave it in their house, can you store it in yours?

 

[Peter Sefton]

Never very keen in working in a very cold workshop, not great for you, your tools or the timber but you might find the more important issue here is the humidity. If the timbers wet and it then goes into the warm dry house it will move and may give you problems. Warm workshops will help but the hot air can also carry more moisture.

I have thermometer/hydrometers in my workshop to measure both temp are humidity, I will take one with me to the customers house if required to see how my workshop matches up to their house.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07XG2P...jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==
I bought mine years ago from ATP UK but can't see them on their website now. I made two rooms of display cabinets for a customer in a Chipping Campden jewellers back in the early 90s, used kiln dried timber, made and fitted a few weeks before opening day and received the dreaded phone call 24 hours before opening. The timber had moved, luckily it had grown in the damp building so was an easy fix!

This short video is a clip taken from my timber selection download which covers the subject of buying, drying and using timber.



Cheers

Peter

 

[blackteaonesugar]

Thanks Peter.
Yes I think humidity is the thing rather than temperature.
It's a framed, ledged and braced door. However, it's a sliding door, hung on a rail, not something contained by hinges and a traditional frame, so I guess it may not be such an issue.

It's a typically difficult scenario for doors I suppose. Hot and dry one side, cold and wet the other.

In this case it's over a newly built shower room in an extension, so potentially humid one side and hot and dry the other.

Never very keen in working in a very cold workshop, not great for you, your tools or the timber

Don't I know it!
It's frikkin freezing in my workshop. On the positive side, it's relatively cheap to rent!

 

[MARK.B.]

Thanks for that vid Peter did not know that about the quarter sawn boards and that it could make such a difference to the movement

 

[blackteaonesugar]

The framework is actually all quarter-sawn.
Beautiful timber with lovely rays.

 

[Adam W.]

Good luck, oak is always on the move quatersawn or not.

 

[D_W]

make the door in the shop, bring it to the house (put down plastic or something) and glue in there if possible. Even if you have to buy a cheap hollow core door to glue it on.

Allowing it to stay in the house for a few days may provide interesting information on whether it will move (though not summer humidity in the mix at this point).

There is quartersawn wood and then there is straight quartersawn wood. QS probably won't cup much, but it can still twist if the grain is vertical but the pith isn't on center on the mill.

There's a fairly easy way to figure out if something will be a problem - saw it to near finished size, then let it sit for a couple of weeks unfinished, especially if you can get a few days of different temps and humidity. If it's going to move, it should move.

There are a few suppliers here in the states who saw quartersawn wood only from straight logs and only with the pith properly centered. Anything else, I generally see some twist. Even with the latter, if making guitar necks, I rough out the neck and then hang through a few weather changes and then finish it later.

Since the edges are flatsawn, it's not always that easy to read the lumber itself and see if there is wander (from quartersawing a log, but having the pith not running straight in line with the saw).

 

[BrandonB]

Unfortunately it's one of those things we are up against and another factor to think about whilst we're measuring up and quoting with our job. I think it's unrealistic to have the idea of working in a heated workshop with a similar temperature to the clients home. That up keep is unrealistic and would be a higher running cost. My thoughts would be to make and finish the door and to take the door into the clients home with sheet material clamped to both faces of the door. I would leave it stood upright for a few days to allow it to slowly climb to temperature. The sheet material should prevent or slow down any rapid moisture change and would emulate it being stacked?

That's just an idea, I've never tried it myself.

 

[danst96]

My workshop was sitting around -17 today . I tried to do some sharpening but the water I was using froze almost immediately on impact with my sharpening glass plate.

I try to keep my projects inside when I'm not working on them and all glue ups happen inside much to the frustration of the family . Cannot wait to get my own workshop and get it set up with heating rather than this temporary uninsulated, unheated garage I'm in.

Sounds like the general consensus is to postpone the build

 

[Peri]

I'd put it off. Explain what is likely to happen if you do it now, if they still want it doing, explain it's against your advice and you won't be responsible for any issues after fitting.

And get that in writing - we already had a member with a similar problem External door warped - who is liable?

 

[Bristol_Rob]

An old soul told me a long time ago 'careful what jobs you win, as you will have to deliver them'

It is OK for you to say this one isn't suited for me. Thank you for considering me, but I know someone who's workshop is better suited to building this for you.

No matter who they are, if they insist you do it after you have explained the risks. Get them to sign a paper saying they won't hold you responsible for any movement after the install.
It's always friendly before an issue.
Also people sometimes genuinely don't remember or heed warnings...

There's nowt queerer than folk

 

[Jones]

If it's new build surely it's standard size. Can't they find a manufactured door they like and just pay you to do a stress free fit ?

 

[Cozzer]

I used to do a bit of driving on behalf of a mower repair shop, which was located in the large cellar of a really old building. No natural daylight for any warmth, no heating whatsoever... there wasn't even a hot water supply.
There were many winter days when it was literally colder inside than out.
We used to joke that we should huddle round a wet polo mint for warmth.

 

[blackteaonesugar]

If it's new build surely it's standard size.

As I say, it's a sliding door on rails, so not like a standard door as such.
Like this

So to me, width expansion or contraction isn't much of an issue. Just don't want it to bow....much.

 

[Droogs]

Explain about wood movement to the customer and ask to be allowed to have the semi prepped oversized parts to be stored in their home so it is given time to acclimatize to their environment. Explain this will be for around a month. You can then collect the wood and final dimension and assemble the door within a few days and deliver back before any major risk of it failing at your end and fit it to the house where it will live fairly happily. If I make something that is out of solid for someone I state that this is a needed step and the reasons why (basically about how CH is a big factor compared to how homes used to be heated in a way similar to the workshop) if they do not want to do this then that I accept no liability for any problems once installed or in situ

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