Clifton: why the lack of ductile iron?

[woden]

Anyone have an inkling why Clifton don't use ductile iron in their bench planes? Is it something to do with keeping costs down? I was flicking through the Axminster catalogue and noticed that they do in fact make their convex and concave spokeshaves from ductile iron - or as they more poshly put it 'spheroidal graphite iron' - but the bench planes are still only made from grey cast iron. I suppose Clifton reason that you're more likely to drop a spokeshave than a bench plane.

I have to say this would really raise question marks over a Clifton purchase for me. Maybe it's different for others but now and again I tend to be a bit of a klutz and drop things/knock things off benches and to think that my pricey investment might one day end up multiplied into several not so pricey chucks on the floor doesn't bear thinking about. Lie Nielsen and Veritas definitely seem to have the edge here.

An even more bizarre choice of materials by Clifton is that for there 420 shoulder plane. Part of the selling spiel in the catalogue emphasizes that the lever arm is made of unbreakable malleable iron. But surely this only goes to highlight in a negative way that the rest of the plane is made of ever-so-breakable cast iron. Are they really trying to entice people to buy this plane with the notion that if dropped the handle certainly won't break but, er... you will have to order a new body as it will have snapped in two? It's an extreme analogy but nobody's ever sold a bike by praising the fact that it still has one wheel.

For a bevel up plane in particular I thought that the new makers were all taking advantage of ductile iron to avoid the old problem of the shallow bed chipping as found in Stanley/Record BUs. It would seem that a Clifton 420 will be every bit as prone to damage at the back of the mouth as a Record 073. Why eradicate the problem of a fragile handle with malleable iron only to neglect another important area that the weakness of cast iron causes problems in?

 

[dunbarhamlin]

Dunno - tradition? Are there other benefits to ductile? How does sole movement compare?

it is one of the factors that was making me look to LN for my next plane - until I picked up on the weight difference. Got hols in September so will need to find somewhere I can compare the two - maybe an LN 5 1/2 instead of a Clico 4 1/2

 

[Scrit]

Part of the answer may lie in the fact that the lever arm is the bit which breaks. I've seen a few of them with broken and brazed/welded repairs. I've certainly dropped planes a few times, but only ever broken one myself.

Are these arms ductile (SG) cast iron or malleable cast iron, though? My possibly flawed understanding is that ductile (SG) cast iron is formed by adding magnesium just before the pour and that the main reasons for doing this are to improve machinability and to reduce the length of time required for destressing between casting and machining whereas malleable cast iron is actually heat-treated white cast iron where the castings are destressed (and structurally changed) by heating in a retort or oven to around 900° Centigrade. My understanding is that grey cast iron is the cheapest, followed by malleable and then ductile so perhaps the reason is cost. My experiennce locally is that not all foundries want to handle ductile iron although I've never needed to ask why so far

Scrit

 

[Alf]

Why don't they have a website? Why do they still make the 405 and yet not take advantage of promoting the sale of the individual cutters for those of us who need replacements? Who knows? Clifton are a tad idiosyncratic as far as I can see. And yes, the grey iron's repeatedly put me off buying one of their planes, despite them ticking so many boxes in other respects.

Cheers, Alf

 

[bugbear]

I have to say this would really raise question marks over a Clifton purchase for me. Maybe it's different for others but now and again I tend to be a bit of a klutz and drop things/knock things off benches

That's what anti-fatigue mats are for.

Nice to walk on, and they save tools from damage when dropped. (*)

Sadly, they also make small dropped components bounce in random directions, but always into obscure corner and/or large piles of shavings. (**)

BugBear

(*) DAMHIKT
(**) DAMHIKT

 

[Scott]

I can vouch for Veritas planes being fairly drop-proof - here's how my Bevel Up Jointer arrived from CHT hanging out the end of the cardboard box and having obviously been dropped on it's nose!

It wasn't worth sending it back from France so I just flattened the bump with a diamond stone and you'd hardly know it had been there

Cheers

 

[Woody Alan]

Hi

I have some direct quotes/precised from Clifton/Clico follows

When iron is cast there is a tendency for thin sections to cool faster then thicker, creating stresses within the csting making it weak and brittle.. To avoid this Clifton planes are cast with up to 10mm additional shaping to beef up thinner areas like sidewall and mouth. This is only there to aid even cooling and will be machined away later.
Castings are normalised/annealed for 50 hours heating and cooling. This 2 day process fully liquifies the internal crystalline structure and reforms itso the finished plane is dimensionally stable and incredinbly strong.
The factory manager took a no7 and dropped it 18 feet onto the factory floor nose downaside from scratching the paint slightly the casting was completly undamaged and remained true.

I am not sure if this is the case with the smaller tools.

 

[CHJ]

...snip... My understanding is that grey cast iron is the cheapest, followed by malleable and then ductile so perhaps the reason is cost. My experiennce locally is that not all foundries want to handle ductile iron although I've never needed to ask why so far
Scrit

That is my understanding of the materials also, other factors in the 'melting pot' (sorry :lol: ) are the alternate production methods of achieving the differing grades in each category and in this respect ductile iron is I believe the more costly to hold to a given specification, (there are at least 5 common grades and an endless number of task specific variants) requiring high grade melting stock which has already been through one of the previous processes and close process control, one of the reasons why a good chuck cost is high.

I once had the experience of having a crankshaft fail on a motorbike, the cause was the poor production control (or specification) of the ductile iron used, I was not alone and the company had to replace several hundred if not thousands of crankshafts with alternate material construction.

As usual Scrits synopsis of the production methods appears to be as good as 'the book' and better than some.

 

[CHJ]

Castings are normalised/annealed for 50 hours heating and cooling. This 2 day process fully liquifies the internal crystalline structure and reforms itso the finished plane is dimensionally stable and incredinbly strong. The factory manager took a no7 and dropped it 18 feet onto the factory floor nose downaside from scratching the paint slightly the casting was completly undamaged and remained true.

The drop test is the final proof of suitability it would seem, be interesting to know what spec. material is used in the casting.
Malleable iron usually takes 100 hrs + to treat. (50hrs ramping up to ~920C and a further 50-60hrs controlled cooling.)

Edit: But if malleable iron is what Clifton are achieving they are not doing themselves any favours not stating so.

 

[woden]

Part of the answer may lie in the fact that the lever arm is the bit which breaks. I've seen a few of them with broken and brazed/welded repairs. I've certainly dropped planes a few times, but only ever broken one myself.

The bodies are vulnerable to breaking too. I know as I picked up a cheap Record 073 which had had both the lever arm and the body broken and brazed back together again. The body had snapped where the two thin walls passed by the lever arm to the front of the plane.

Are these arms ductile (SG) cast iron or malleable cast iron, though?

Malleable, according to the blurb in the Axminster catalogue. Apparently, from having done a bit of looking into to this some time ago, although malleable iron isn't used as much nowadays it's still preferred for thin and otherwise fragile castings. I guess the lever arm fits this description.

My possibly flawed understanding is that ductile (SG) cast iron is formed...

And as usual your understanding is most likely as good as fact. Thanks for the insight. Although I did do a little check on wikipedia - if it can be relied upon - and the entries for malleable and ductile iron seem to confirm what you've stated here.

Why do they still make the 405 and yet not take advantage of promoting the sale of the individual cutters for those of us who need replacements?

Is the 405 the multiplane that they do - a renaming of Stanley's 45? C'est tres pricey! You can get 16 additional cutters separately for the grand sum of £146 from Axminster. But yes the brand does seem to have its limitations when it comes to customer service.

I wonder will they go into producing bevel up bench planes like Veritas and Lie Nielsen but with still using the grey cast iron?

The factory manager took a no7 and dropped it 18 feet onto the factory floor nose downaside from scratching the paint slightly the casting was completly undamaged and remained true.

That sounds impressive but the nose of the no7 is fairly thick and chunky. I wonder would the thin end of the bed on a bevel up shoulder plane withstand a similar knock?

 

[Woody Alan]

That sounds impressive but the nose of the no7 is fairly thick and chunky. I wonder would the thin end of the bed on a bevel up shoulder plane withstand a similar knock?

As you asked, No clearly not, from any manufacturer. I think you have to be a little realistic about what you can expect from a plane, it is meant to be treated with some respect and used in an environment where the likely hood of being dropped 3 feet onto rubber or wood floor should be the norm. If you want tools to survive lobbing out of the upstairs window onto a concrete drive you're probably doing the wrong things with them

Cheers Alan

 

[Rob Lee]

(snip)

It wasn't worth sending it back from France so I just flattened the bump with a diamond stone and you'd hardly know it had been there

Cheers

Hi Scott -

Please send me your address, and I'll have something sent to compensate for the "bruise"...

Cheers -

Rob

 

[woden]

If you want tools to survive lobbing out of the upstairs window onto a concrete drive you're probably doing the wrong things with them

Aw, schucks... that explains why they kept breaking when I chucked them at next door neighbour's cat. So just woodworking then and no pest control? Well, we all have our limitations.

On a serious note I have seen enough chipped, cracked or broken grey cast iron tools to suggest that at least some must have broken in the course of regular work without any exceptionally rough handling. I just don't think that both LN and LV are being that cynical that they're producing their stuff in ductile for no other good reason than a marketing ploy. And if Clifton are so confident about the strength of their grey cast iron why make their spokeshaves from ductile? Doesn't that acknowledge, at the very least, that thinner castings - like the a shallow bed - need a more robust type of iron?

 

[woden]

Please sent me your address, and I'll have something sent to compensate for the "bruise"...

On reading such an amazingly kind offer of genorosity I collapsed and bruised my shoulder. So can I have something sent to me as well? ...oh look, there's a second bruise. So that'll be two planes then. Hang on, is that another... I fancy a spokeshave... :wink:


But seriously, once again, top marks for customer service, Mr Lee.

 

[Lord Nibbo]

(snip)

It wasn't worth sending it back from France so I just flattened the bump with a diamond stone and you'd hardly know it had been there

Cheers

Hi Scott -

Please send me your address, and I'll have something sent to compensate for the "bruise"...

Cheers -

Rob

Hey Rob all my LA planes got delivered with bruises :^o :^o :^o :lol: :wink:

 

[Rob Lee]

(snip)

So can I have something sent to me as well? ...oh look, there's a second bruise. So that'll be two planes then. Hang on, is that another... I fancy a spokeshave... :wink:

(snip)

No piccy - no parcel.... :lol:

If I had a plane, and it got dinged like that - I'd remember it every time I picked it up and used it....

We'd just rather have an association with a better memory....

Cheers -

Rob

 

[CHJ]

A generous offer Rob, I can confirm that Scott* is a gentleman deserving of the consideration.

As long as it's not a "Boat Anchor" if you should have any in the pipeline as he has sufficient of those to hand.

(*Master of M.V. Highland Pioneer)

 

[Woody Alan]

Aw, schucks... that explains why they kept breaking when I chucked them at next door neighbour's cat. So just woodworking then and no pest control? Well, we all have our limitations.

Well if you were a good shot it wouldn't be a problem

 

[CHJ]

Well if you were a good shot it wouldn't be a problem

Certainly not quite so CAT-Astrophic.

 

[Paul Chapman]

But yes the brand does seem to have its limitations when it comes to customer service.

While I think Alf's description of Clico as rather idiosyncratic is probably quite accurate in that they don't have a website, they don't answer emails and they haven't put some of their excellent prototype planes, which their excellent, enthusiastic but very small workforce have developed, into production, I have always found the firm very helpful over the telephone and at shows. Like Lee Valley and Lie Nielsen, I have always found that Clico will provide excellent customer service if you have any problem with one of their products. They have even sent me stuff at no cost when they had no need to.

Cheers :wink:

Paul (an enthusiastic user of Clifton planes :wink: )