Clifton planes

[Benwer34]

Hi guys, looking for thoughts on Clifton planes? Are the green ones better than the black? Is it worth waiting to find a second hand one with a hand forged blade?

Cheers
B

 

[shed9]

I have an unhealthy collection of premium planes, including far too many Lie Nielsens within that fold. I received a new Clifton no 4.5 heavy smoother as a birthday gift in the last few years, a black paint variant.

Someone who knows more on the history of Q&A and other aspects directly related to Clifton's may be able to assist here. However, the tool I have is a thing of beauty and a sheer joy to use, I genuinely struggle to see how a black paint Clifton can be inferior to a green equivalent.

When I first started to jump into buying better hand tools many, many years ago, I asked on this very forum for feedback and advice on whether to go the Veritas, Lie Nielsen or Clifton route on my first purchase - you know the type of thread, it wasn't the first and won't be the last. Peter Sefton of Wood Workers Workshop at the time tried to steer me to Clifton and I resisted. Peter I apologise, you were right.

To the OP, buy what is available. If you find you are hankering for different blade iron, you can always go that route another day but I suspect the current supplied blades of the black paint planes will keep you happy.

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

Wife bought me a green #3 about 20 years ago. It is my favorite smoother and a thing of beauty. Fit & finish is top notch. The blade is equally great for the types of wood I work (mainly cherry, some walnut & white oak).

I've never seen a black one in person.

 

[paulm]

If you're really lucky you might find an anniversary version green one with walnut totes

and the hand forged blade

 

[D_W]

Hi guys, looking for thoughts on Clifton planes? Are the green ones better than the black? Is it worth waiting to find a second hand one with a hand forged blade?

Cheers
B

corrected - I thought the original one piece cap iron was mated to a cryo treated a2 iron, but peter has given better information - it's cryo treated O1.

Comments below regarding what cryo does to O1 (most will find the effect to be an improvement).

 

[Peter Sefton]

The Clifton bench planes have had three changes since the new ownership a few years ago, the most visible is the green to grey paint makeover.

The second change was the move from hand forged O1 to the new cryogenically hardened O1, I was involved with the bench testing and evaluation of the new steels. The original steel was quick and easy to sharpen up but the replacement holds its edge longer whilst still being easy to sharpen. If you look at the last image of paulm's post above you may notice the hand forged logo position varies on the blades. Customers would complain about this as they weren't all perfectly lined up, I think we have become so far removed from the making process to consider trying hold a blade with tongs whilst its red hot under a huge 20 ton hammer The new blades are laser etched.

The third change was the swap over to the one piece cap iron/chip breaker, the original two piece "stay set" was miss understood. The removable cap was designed to rock on the central pivot point, meaning pressure was always transferred to support the cutting edge even if the blade became twisted or worn by uneven backing off. I liked the two piece chip breaker but was happy to test and advise on its replacement when market forces deemed it necessary.

We are really struggling to get Clifton stock but if anyone wants an old hand forged blade or two piece chip breaker give me a shout, I think it's fair to say we won't be seeing them again.

Cheers

Peter

 

[clogs]

Paulm,
ur pictues are ****......hahaha......

 

[Blackswanwood]

My bench plane is a Clifton 5 1/2. I bought it 15 years ago and have no regrets. As to whether the old models or new ones are better I really doubt most of us would notice the difference.

 

[D_W]

The Clifton bench planes have had three changes since the new ownership a few years ago, the most visible is the green to grey paint makeover.

The second change was the move from hand forged O1 to the new cryogenically hardened O1, I was involved with the bench testing and evaluation of the new steels. The original steel was quick and easy to sharpen up but the replacement holds its edge longer whilst still being easy to sharpen. If you look at the last image of paulm's post above you may notice the hand forged logo position varies on the blades. Customers would complain about this as they weren't all perfectly lined up, I think we have become so far removed from the making process to consider trying hold a blade with tongs whilst its red hot under a huge 20 ton hammer The new blades are laser etched.

The third change was the swap over to the one piece cap iron/chip breaker, the original two piece "stay set" was miss understood. The removable cap was designed to rock on the central pivot point, meaning pressure was always transferred to support the cutting edge even if the blade became twisted or worn by uneven backing off. I liked the two piece chip breaker but was happy to test and advise on its replacement when market forces deemed it necessary.

We are really struggling to get Clifton stock but if anyone wants an old hand forged blade or two piece chip breaker give me a shout, I think it's fair to say we won't be seeing them again.

Cheers

Peter

My aplogies - I thought I remembered the changeover to bar stock heat treated material being A2.

if it's O1 and cryo treated, the cryo is at the tail end of the quench (no good reason for it to be elsewhere) and it should be a point or two harder at the same temper otherwise - especially given the usual tendency to terminate the quench in warmed oil and then air cool (sacrificing hardness for less warping).

There's a thought that steel isn't forged in bar stock, but the rolling process is forging and it's very well controlled. the carbides are elongated when rolling, but depending on whether or not it's spheroidized to make it easier to machine (much of it here is), the elongated carbides take on a spherical shape.

edge holding in o1 steel is proportional to hardness, so two points of additional hardness will greatly affect fine edge holding and sharpness off of the same stones, and in heavier plaining, probably add at least 10% to edge life.

Anyone complaining about defective stamps older or new should make a piece of metal orange and try to hammer a stamp into it accurately. the stamp that clifton used was very large. Even a little two letter stamp is difficult to strike cleanly with a "lump" hammer.

it is difficult to forge O1 into a better condition than high quality rolled material.

There used to be a notion that cryo treatment was intended to modify carbides, but the real attribute of it is converting (more) austenite after quenching to hard martensite that can then be tempered back. Steve knight used to have O1 cryo treated and the irons that he sold that were treated were improved (hard and fine).

 

[Peter Sefton]

Paulm,
ur pictues are ****......hahaha......

I agree, I appreciate the faultless clinical engineering in my Veritas planes but opening up a Clifton cardboard box just smells of Sheffield, the polished lever cap and bodies show their heritage and handmade credentials.

The MD of the old Clico "Clifton" business was the Master of The Worshipful Company of Cutlers and the design elements and traditions spilled over into the planes.

Cheers

Peter

 

[paulm]

Before I bought my Cliftons I had a good few Lie-Nielsens that I was more than happy with.

But then I saw and tried a Clifton 5 1/2 at a forum get together and was totally taken with it !

The Lie-Nielsens I respected as the fine tools they were, but I loved the Cliftons, they had character and soul and made me smile as well as doing what I wanted with bits of wood

After a year or so of co-ownership I sold most of the LN's, great tools though they were, I always picked up one of the Cliftons in preference !

Personally I'm sad that the new owners of the company dropped pretty much all of the usps that made the earlier Cliftons special, even the simple iconic paint colour, hand forged (and stamped!) irons,and the two piece chip breakers for example, in the process becoming more 'me too' and bland with much less appeal and distinctiveness in the process for me anyway.

 

[Jacob]

I had a Clifton 4 briefly. Wasn't obviously any different from using a well set up Record or Stanley, except it was heavier and seemed to be made of soft steel and picked up scratches very easily. But then it was easy to remove them on a bit of wet wet n dry. Not that it matters of course except it could affect the resale value.
Didn't see the point at all and sold it on.
PS was green I think, but not bothered about the colour. Could be pink or polka dotted - they could just ring the changes! Tartan?
PS it was the bedrock design - which was always pointless and never caught on, but also had the 2 piece Stay-set cap iron - which was a good idea and I bought the cap irons for some of my other planes too - so it wasn't a completely wasted venture!

 

[D_W]

I agree, I appreciate the faultless clinical engineering in my Veritas planes but opening up a Clifton cardboard box just smells of Sheffield, the polished lever cap and bodies show their heritage and handmade credentials.

The MD of the old Clico "Clifton" business was the Master of The Worshipful Company of Cutlers and the design elements and traditions spilled over into the planes.

Cheers

Peter

The stamp is stylish. a smaller one would be stylish and the iron doesn't need to be forged to include it, of course. It's not even in a critical area of it.

I commented in another forum that a maker's stamp in metal distinguishes the item for non-critical purpose (but attracting a customer and making them appreciate the stamp over and over is critical!!) above and beyond an etch or sticker no matter how great the latter may be. A stamp is somehow more human and shows more care.

The response was that the distortion is intolerable and adds cost (it does seeing some distortion telegraph through to the back of the iron at the top would make it look less sterile.

never used a clifton but didn't care for the stayset on records - they are not quite as good at preventing shaving invasion when using the cap close set, but I get the idea - handy if the cap isn't set close.

Would be lovely to have seen clifton go to a sprung stanley design slightly heavier, but stamping things to shape seems to be going out the door along with forging things to shape. Punch, waterjet, CNC, etc, all taking over.

There is some reality in terms of profits, too. Sooner or later, you can't deal with a narrow margin combined with customers who find a pinhole on the surface of a casting and decide they want another plane.