Clifton iorns in old planes

[E-wan]

If I was thinking of trying to fit a new Clifton iron and chip breaker to an old Bailey Stanley or Record plane what should I look for or avoid when searching for second-hand planes?

Thanks

Ewan


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[Cheshirechappie]

Opinion is VERY divided about fitting thicker irons to Bailey-type planes. Some say performance is noticeably better, and some say it isn't. This has debated, over many threads, with generally far more heat than light.

I did just that many moons ago, fitting a Victor (Clifton before they were stamped Clifton) iron and two-piece cap-iron to a Record 07. I found it improved performance, noticeably but not dramatically.

Two things to watch for. Firstly, some planes (mostly older ones, I think) have narrower mouths, and the thicker iron means having to file the mouth a bit wider. I didn't have that problem with a 1980s Record - the new iron just dropped straight in, leaving a perfectly adequate mouth opening. However, I did find that the tab of the adjuster yoke only just engaged with the slot in the cap-iron; it worked - just. I subsequently replaced the yoke with one having a longer tab, and all is now tickety-boo.

 

[thetyreman]

the disadvantages of thick irons are the longer sharpening times, the advantage of thinner original irons is that they are lighter in weight and take a fraction of the time to sharpen, but I haven't used a clifton iron myself and I bet they are pretty good, wouldn't want to file away or open up an old plane mouth because once you've done it you can't go back.

 

[Racers]

You might get problems with the adjuster and mouth, both can be overcome with a new yoke and by filing the back of the mouth.
A close set chip breaker is better than a tight mouth for controlling tear out so even if you file the front of the mouth it isn’t a big problem.
I have some home made 3 mm blades that work very well and the extra time sharpening is not noticeable to me.

Pete

 

[Beau]

I had a Victor iron in my 5 1/2. It fitted fine with no problems with the mouth but didn't think much of edge the blade took or the sharpening time and gone back to the record blade the plane came with.

 

[johnnyb]

My finding we're Clifton irons we're not that great edge holding wise. I love my smooth cut laminated blade( japanese). It's thin as well.
It holds it's edge much longer. And is noticeably easy to sharpen. These are massively overpriced these days though much cheaper 20 years ago.
I agree that a2 is a bit of a pain to sharpen with the thick irons. God knows why fancy manufacturers thought it was a good idea. They don't rust as much though.

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

Ewan, I am curious as to why you want to change the original iron. What advantage are you hoping to gain? I am not saying there is no advantage, I'm just curious as to what you are hoping to achieve. Perhaps Cheshire Chappie can explain in what way the plane performs better with the Victor iron. Does the iron take a finer edge? or does it keep it's edge longer between sharpening? or does it make the plane feel more solid (less prone to skipping and chatter)? or is it a combination things? I have in the past considered buying a "top end" iron for one of my planes out of curiosity, but the price and the faff (filing mouths and changing yokes) has put me off, especially as my stock irons work fine. I have always suspected that my QS block plane takes and keeps a finer edge than my Stanley and Record bench planes, but it is hard to compare as the planes get different usage. I notice in your post you are looking to buy a second hand plane and the iron rather than convert one you already own, In that scenario you may well spend less money on a band new QS bench plane with a thick iron that should require little or no fettling, personally I would find that preferable. but each to his own.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Paddy, the whole plane feels more 'solid', somehow. I'm not sure that edge retention is any better than a standard Bailey iron, but it's certainly no worse, and it does seem to get a bit sharper. I gather that the current production Clifton irons are cryogenically treated, and do hold an edge longer, though are a bit harder to sharpen. I certainly don't find my old Victor any harder to sharpen than a standard iron.

Would I undertake the exercise again knowing what I know now? I think I'd probably not bother with the thicker iron, but I would fit a modern 'flat' cap-iron (or a two-piece cap-iron if you can find one), to stiffen up the iron/cap-iron assembly. I suspect that's the most cost-effective way to improve the feel of a Bailey-type plane, and it avoids the need to change yokes.

 

[thetyreman]

My finding we're Clifton irons we're not that great edge holding wise. I love my smooth cut laminated blade( japanese). It's thin as well.
It holds it's edge much longer. And is noticeably easy to sharpen. These are massively overpriced these days though much cheaper 20 years ago.

+1 those smooth cut japanese laminated blades are incredible, my favourite blades so far, they are in a league of their own.

 

[E-wan]

My finding we're Clifton irons we're not that great edge holding wise. I love my smooth cut laminated blade( japanese). It's thin as well.
It holds it's edge much longer. And is noticeably easy to sharpen. These are massively overpriced these days though much cheaper 20 years ago.

+1 those smooth cut japanese laminated blades are incredible, my favourite blades so far, they are in a league of their own.

Thank you do you know where one can find these and if they work with a chip braker?

Ewan

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[E-wan]

Ewan, I am curious as to why you want to change the original iron. What advantage are you hoping to gain? I am not saying there is no advantage, I'm just curious as to what you are hoping to achieve. Perhaps Cheshire Chappie can explain in what way the plane performs better with the Victor iron. Does the iron take a finer edge? or does it keep it's edge longer between sharpening? or does it make the plane feel more solid (less prone to skipping and chatter)? or is it a combination things? I have in the past considered buying a "top end" iron for one of my planes out of curiosity, but the price and the faff (filing mouths and changing yokes) has put me off, especially as my stock irons work fine. I have always suspected that my QS block plane takes and keeps a finer edge than my Stanley and Record bench planes, but it is hard to compare as the planes get different usage. I notice in your post you are looking to buy a second hand plane and the iron rather than convert one you already own, In that scenario you may well spend less money on a band new QS bench plane with a thick iron that should require little or no fettling, personally I would find that preferable. but each to his own.

Looking to get set up with a few more hand woodworking tools and the second hand planes I have seen so far apear to have fairley knackered iorns which might be a little impractical to flatten the back of.

Have an Old Bailey number 4 smoothing plane which is in fairley good condition but number 5 planes I've seen second hand seem to have had a little less care.

Thinking at a second-hand plane with new iron might be more economical than a new fancy plane which seem to be rather highly priced.

Thanks

Ewan

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[thetyreman]

My finding we're Clifton irons we're not that great edge holding wise. I love my smooth cut laminated blade( japanese). It's thin as well.
It holds it's edge much longer. And is noticeably easy to sharpen. These are massively overpriced these days though much cheaper 20 years ago.

+1 those smooth cut japanese laminated blades are incredible, my favourite blades so far, they are in a league of their own.

Thank you do you know where one can find these and if they work with a chip braker?

Ewan

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this is the one https://www.axminster.co.uk/japanese-la ... es-ax22303 says they are out of stock though at the moment.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

As well as the mouth widening and longer yoke, the lever cap screw is left hanging on by not that many turns of thread into the frog, and it is easy to strip the thread from the frog. DAMHIKT.

I settled for the very thin Stanley iron that came with my Record #6, but with the Clifton two piece cap iron, which I do believe help - the original Record ones were better made, if you can find them.

 

[E-wan]

I have always suspected that my QS block plane takes and keeps a finer edge than my Stanley and Record bench planes, but it is hard to compare as the planes get different usage. ....., In that scenario you may well spend less money on a band new QS bench plane with a thick iron that should require little or no fettling.

Thanks Paddy

By QS do you refer to QUANGSHENG planes?

If so might I ask how hard you find a steel for their irons. Is it like A2 whear one needs to use water stones to sharpen it or can you managed to touch up their blades on an oil stone?

Thanks

Ewan




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[--Tom--]

Cryogenic treatment is useful for alloyed stainless alloys where martensite transformation is helped but I’m less convinced for simple carbon steels, more marketing than substance. Once I find a relatively local surface grinder on Ebay, it should be relatively easy to make O1 plane blades at most hardness levels in whatever thickness. I’ve had it on the list of things to make for a while now, but reliably flat post quench without mechanisation has meant its more work than it should be

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

I have always suspected that my QS block plane takes and keeps a finer edge than my Stanley and Record bench planes, but it is hard to compare as the planes get different usage. ....., In that scenario you may well spend less money on a band new QS bench plane with a thick iron that should require little or no fettling.

Thanks Paddy

By QS do you refer to QUANGSHENG planes?

If so might I ask how hard you find a steel for their irons. Is it like A2 whear one needs to use water stones to sharpen it or can you managed to touch up their blades on an oil stone?

Thanks

Ewan




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Ewan, yes I mean Quangsheng. The irons are standard carbon tool steel and are easy to sharpen with any stones (personally I use diamonds and a strop). AFAIK the planes re the equal of LN and Clifton but cost half the money, I only have their block plane and it is excellent.
There are two main objections I have seen to buying QS planes. One is that they are heavier than Stanley/Record planes and this can be tiring during long planing sessions (this is also true of LN, Clifton and Veritas). The other is the ethics of buying Chinese products (there is a monster thread here which covers all angles of that conversation counterfeit-and-knock-off-tools-t87528.html?hilit=chinese

Paddy

 

[Woody2Shoes]

If you haven't already looked at: https://www.workshopheaven.com/hand-too ... ories.html

It's worth it, as they do:

- Clifton blades;
- Japanese blades mentioned upthread (only disadvantage as far as I'm concerned is can't use diamond stones to sharpen);
- Replacement adjuster yokes;
- All the Quangsheng gear (including replacment blades) - which I find excellent value for money.

If it were me, I'd want to try and avoid filing the mouth of my old plane and ideally also avoid fitting a new adjuster yoke - which implies a fairly thin replacement blade.

Another option is the Veritas PM-V11 steel replacement blades designed as a direct replacement (they also do a matching chipbreaker)

https://www.axminster.co.uk/veritas-pm- ... s-ax937586

I really like PM-V11 steel, but would find sharpening it without diamonds a bit boring.

I think that it's possible to get a great deal of planing pleasure and performance from the original blade/chipbreaker combo - whether or not you have upwards of £50 spare to spend on new blade/CB. I haven't yet bothered, but if I did upgrade an old plane, I'd use the PM-V11 option.

Cheers, W2S

 

[custard]

If I was thinking of trying to fit a new Clifton iron and chip breaker to an old Bailey Stanley or Record plane what should I look for or avoid when searching for second-hand planes?

Ewan mate, you've fallen down another woodworking rabbit hole, and just like Japanese saws it's a rabbit hole than can cost you quite a lot of money and time without moving you up the skills ladder.

Here's a bog standard Record plane with a drop-in replacement iron and cap iron, in this case the Veritas PM-VII replacement.

I tried it against the bog standard Record iron and cap iron. Here's a shaving from each iron used in the same plane,

Can you tell the difference?

No, I couldn't either!

 

[thetyreman]

If you haven't already looked at: https://www.workshopheaven.com/hand-too ... ories.html

It's worth it, as they do:

- Clifton blades;
- Japanese blades mentioned upthread (only disadvantage as far as I'm concerned is can't use diamond stones to sharpen);
- Replacement adjuster yokes;
- All the Quangsheng gear (including replacment blades) - which I find excellent value for money.

If it were me, I'd want to try and avoid filing the mouth of my old plane and ideally also avoid fitting a new adjuster yoke - which implies a fairly thin replacement blade.

Another option is the Veritas PM-V11 steel replacement blades designed as a direct replacement (they also do a matching chipbreaker)

https://www.axminster.co.uk/veritas-pm- ... s-ax937586

I really like PM-V11 steel, but would find sharpening it without diamonds a bit boring.

I think that it's possible to get a great deal of planing pleasure and performance from the original blade/chipbreaker combo - whether or not you have upwards of £50 spare to spend on new blade/CB. I haven't yet bothered, but if I did upgrade an old plane, I'd use the PM-V11 option.

Cheers, W2S

you can use diamond stones to sharpen the japanese blades, I used diamond stones on mine with no problems.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

If you haven't already looked at: https://www.workshopheaven.com/hand-too ... ories.html

It's worth it, as they do:

- Clifton blades;
- Japanese blades mentioned upthread (only disadvantage as far as I'm concerned is can't use diamond stones to sharpen);
- Replacement adjuster yokes;
- All the Quangsheng gear (including replacment blades) - which I find excellent value for money.

If it were me, I'd want to try and avoid filing the mouth of my old plane and ideally also avoid fitting a new adjuster yoke - which implies a fairly thin replacement blade.

Another option is the Veritas PM-V11 steel replacement blades designed as a direct replacement (they also do a matching chipbreaker)

https://www.axminster.co.uk/veritas-pm- ... s-ax937586

I really like PM-V11 steel, but would find sharpening it without diamonds a bit boring.

I think that it's possible to get a great deal of planing pleasure and performance from the original blade/chipbreaker combo - whether or not you have upwards of £50 spare to spend on new blade/CB. I haven't yet bothered, but if I did upgrade an old plane, I'd use the PM-V11 option.

Cheers, W2S

you can use diamond stones to sharpen the japanese blades, I used diamond stones on mine with no problems.

I'm just going by what I'd read on the WH website about the laminated ones - https://www.workshopheaven.com/tsunesab ... 2-3-8.html

"....keep them clear of diamond stones though as the soft iron supporting layer can damage the diamond surface...."

Needless to say, I'm doing fine with the (types of) blades that came with each of my planes, old and new, and don't (yet) own any Japanese ones!