Clients, designs and decisions

[Dokkodo]

Ive had a few jobs recently which have been delayed and occassionally frustrated by indecision and slow responses on questions of design and component or material choices etc. I was wondering about everyone else's experiences and advice with regards to dealing with clients throughout a project. Is it just circumstantial each time or do you have rules you try to stick to?

For instance, the custom kitchen i'm working on at the moment involved a certain amount of to-ing and fro-ing with drawings at the start, which is just the nature of getting on the same wavelength. Both they and I would like it to be complete as soon as is reasonable, and I have started on the elements which are certain, but there are a few remaining major decisions which could now hold things up. Should I have confirmed absolutely everything before starting? They are friends and there is no bad blood, it just see wasted time looming ahead, and this sort of thing has happened a few times, once to fairly disastrous effect (for my stress levels anyway)

I have only been doing purely 'self employed' projects for a while although i am trying to steer myself in that direction. On top of trying to be fully self employed and juggle work offers as they come and go, I really struggle to price work up at the best of times and almost always end up working for free to get things finished, so i think i need a better strategy!

 

[dzj]

'To-ing and fro-ing with drawings at the start' is OK and 'confirming absolutely everything before starting' is also a good
practice. If you plan to do this as your primary source of income, you'll have to have a few 'irons in the fire' at all times.
Any uncertainties will result in a domino effect, you missing deadlines and things becoming complicated very quickly.
Throw in unplanned family obligations, unexpected shop maintenance...basically you're solving a system of equations,
but you don't know the exact number of unknowns.
It's a bit of a guessing game. At the beginning, you're terrible at it, but as years go by, you get better.
Some people can't stomach it, so they seek employment elsewhere.

 

[MikeG.]

........ I really struggle to price work up at the best of times and almost always end up working for free to get things finished.......

I'm self-employed (architect, though, not making stuff). Some of the best advice I was given on being self-employed was "there are lots of busy fools"......meant in the context that it is very easy to be busy and not earning money. So I am now absolutely scrupulous about making sure that, apart from the free initial visit and assessment (taking the brief), I never work for nothing. (Well, other than giving advice on the internet!! ) The other thing I soon learnt was that clients will keep on changing their minds if you let them. I give them a countdown, and then at a certain point say "this is the final version of the drawings" and often even get them to physically sign and date a paper copy. If you develop the discipline of getting clients to formally agree the final drawings, very clear in the knowledge that this is their last chance to change anything, you might find yourself with fewer issues.

 

[Rob Platt]

They are friends and there is no bad blood, it just see wasted time looming ahead, and this sort of thing has happened a few times, once to fairly disastrous effect (for my stress levels anyway;
advice;
don't work for anyone you socialise with.
get it in writing especially colours .
get money up front it commits the client.
there's a lot more to learn than those.
all the best
rob

 

[AndyT]

If I was your client and was still getting down to my final choices on some aspects, I wouldn't want to find out that you had already bought materials or started work on something I was still considering. Even more if you hadn't explicitly told me.
So you really need to be communicating with your customers and making that clear. Also that the finish date depends on choices being made.
Mike G's suggestions look a sensible way of letting the customer know that the time for changing minds has finished.

 

[cowfoot]

Here's a problem - it's very difficult when starting out as self-employed to avoid working for family and friends. They're the worst clients, though - you feel obliged to do them a favour on price and the consequences of disagreement can be much worse than if it was a total stranger. I've come to the conclusion that it's never worth it, frankly.
The upside is that managing to secure work from the public at large feels like much more of an achievement!

 

[Mr T]

Hi Dokkodod

Pricing is often a problem when you are starting out, it took me many years of poverty to get it even close to right! Here is an article I wrote about it for F&C many years ago. I hope you find it useful.
http://www.christribefurniturecourses.com/index.php/the-price-is-right/

Chris

 

[Dokkodo]

Really great to hear everyones thoughts. Think I will try and be stricter in future on getting decisions made before starting and more firmly setting final designs. I appreciate that it never stops being a juggling act to some degree...

Cowfoot, youve hit the nail on the head there, so far most of what I have been doing when working solo is for family friends and aquaintances, with secondary referrals now starting to occur as well. But so far my experience is that i'm trying to do them a favour as you say and end up totally shafting myself in the process! I also think if you have too much of a relationship beforehand you are too keen to please, and too soft on decisions and changing minds. So im really trying to phase it out, but its been a useful learning curve either way.

 

[HappyHacker]

Having worked for decades in a wide variety of jobs where I have had to get clients(from the individual customer to multinational businesses) to say what they wanted and then deliver it I can confidently say I do not have the answers but I can give you a few clues:

The customer knows what they think they want but have not considered all the issues and additional decisions they need to make in order to get what they need. It is part of your job to guide them and explain the decisions they need to make, when they need to make them, the cost implications of the different options they may be considering and the impact of any delay on your schedule.

As has been said communication is vital and if you produce a project plan showing the key activities and decision points it can be an excellent aid to communication.

When the customer decides they would like the sink and hob to be in the island unit instead of by the window after the floor tiles have been laid, the power, waste and water are now by the window and you point out the cost and delay of moving everything they will inevitably say "why did you not say that before".

I have had customers say they cannot decide where to put the light switches, so I have got them to agree to wireless switches they can stick on the wall anywhere and move if they don't like the position. I have not yet managed to find a wireless sockets to overcome the problems of the request to fit an additional socket when the kitchen is finished and tiled.

While you can plan for the known unknowns a few unknown unknowns will come to bite you on every project so allow some contingency.

Good luck

 

[thetyreman]

I don't think you should work for free personally, it's your decision, try and think about what you would charge for next time and include time, costs, expenses, wood is not cheap, and that's without charging a decent amount for time either with a day rate or hourly rate.

Don't forget about the minor expenses, like sandpaper, traveling costs, and all the little things, even pencils, it might sound ridiculous but it all adds up and it's a real ongoing expense, I don't do woodworking for a living, but I am self employed and understand the mindset, it's nothing at all like working in a mediocre office job with pleasures, bonuses and stability.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

When first starting, I would not expect to make a lot of money by using family and friends as clients. I would (did) use the experience as a learning exercise to add to my kills, find out exactly how long things take, how to iron out problems that crop up, but couldn't forsee, try out techniques that I might have not tried before.... etc. etc. Take note of everything so you will be better placed to quote for jobs for real clients, better informed as to what can go wrong and how petty people can be over insignificant things and how completely unaware they often are of huge issues that make a 'simple' job into a complete headache. If they are good friends, then they will be lenient with you, if you have to fix something that went wrong, because they know they are being done a job for cheaper than they would otherwise pay. In return, be lenient with them for taking their time deciding just what they want. If they change their mind on certain details, provided it doesn't mean a re-do from start, then accommodate them, it is more experience in doing something different and adds to your armoury of knowledge in how to deal effectively with customers indecision. When you have done a few jobs for friends, you will find out exactly how much (more) the jobs should have cost, through hindsight, and probably how unlikely the friends would have been to pay it! So if you don't expect much, you will not be disappointed. But it is paid for education, and that is priceless. If you try to use real client with real money to get this education and you might find yourself in real trouble.

Making bespoke items will always have uncertainty, it is the nature of the job. If you don't want any level of uncertainty, then don't go into this as a job, it will always crop up. This aspect of it has to appeal to you, you must want to deal with customer satisfaction and often even they don't know what will satisfy them.

Mike.

 

[MusicMan]

You are getting some really good advice here, Dokkodo. Just adding one point; you are sometimes asked to give a 'budget' figure so that the potential buyer can discuss it with other stakeholders, normally SWMBO in this context. Beware! I used to have to do this for customers applying for grants, and if I picked a 'typical' figure for them, so that they could get the grant application off, it inevitably set an expectation quite independent of the options and configuration they eventually wanted. When they got the money and wanted to place the order, they wanted more options at no more money. So I gave them the information they needed, but insisted on finding out exactly what they wanted and quoting for it precisely.

This is pretty much what MikeG and others have been saying, put in a different way. We have all learned similar things from experience.

 

[davin]

Nothing against Brighton at all, but I have stopped advertising there and try to swerve any enquiries from there.
I just found that it is a city full of timewasters, people with great ideas who want you to come and discuss their great plans, and for you to share their vision and then to make it for them for next to nothing.
As I said nothing against the town or the people but spent too many evenings doing sketchup drawings or going to look at potential jobs and then never proceeding.
Perhaps I just didn't fit the required image, or more likely there is always someone willing or able to do the work far cheaper than myself.
Since I started looking elsewhere for work I now have a very high rate of meetings leading to work.
I have found my typical customer to be middle aged "middle class" (whatever that is) kids growing up and now have a bit of money to spend on the home.
Just my observation

 

[MikeG.]

Just to illustrate what MM has just said, I saw a new client today about a smallish garage project. With a large plot of land, there are a number of options as to where this garage might be sited, including attached to the house, or at quite some distance. Further, they might or might not include a gym in the building, have loft accommodation (with internal or external access), and sink it slightly into the rising ground (or not). All the houses in the locality are modern and brick, rather ruling out the green oak cart lodge they had in mind, but there are lots of different style options to be mulled over. After explaining at some length the range of different options open to us, these people asked how much I thought the building was going to cost!! As I've heard this a thousand times before, I replied that once we have some idea of the preferred building, and its location, then we can start looking at costs, (and adjust the building if necessary to fit with their budget).

To bring this into context. If you are designing a kitchen or fitted furniture, or whatever, then don't even begin to talk about money (unless to hear what their budget is), until there is a design. If you say "I expect this will cost somewhere in the range £6,000 to £10,000", all your clients will hear is £6,000. When it eventually comes in at £11,000 you have immediately made yourself very unpopular ("but you said......" and "it's double what you quoted us".....). You may also come to realise that people who say "I've only got £5,000 for this project" will often eventually find double that if the design excites them. Thrill them with the design, first and foremost, before you begin to talk budgets.

 

[Dokkodo]

Thanks Mike, more wisdom and much appreciated. Much psychology involved, going to practice my poker face. So far the easiest thing seems to be to emphasise the higher end of the likely cost of a given design, and overestimate the labour, because I am a bit of an optimist I suppose, sure it wont last. Still have to find the balance though...

There definitely seems to be a type of person (most, so far) who has a very clear idea of what they want, but who seem utterly unable to actually define it in terms of real, available options, and expects you to somehow entice this vision from their mind and realise it.

Davin, im surprised youve had such a wholly negative experience of Brighton... i was under the impression it is full of people enjoying the fact that their houses have tripled in value in the last 20 years and therefore happy to splash out on improvements, though to be honest I havent been advertising or done any work for joe public in town yet...

 

[Dokkodo]

Thanks Mike, more wisdom and much appreciated. Much psychology involved, going to practice my poker face. So far the easiest thing seems to be to emphasise the higher end of the likely cost of a given design, and overestimate the labour, because I am a bit of an optimist I suppose, sure it wont last. Still have to find the balance though...

There definitely seems to be a type of person (most, so far) who has a very clear idea of what they want, but who seem utterly unable to actually define it in terms of real, available options, and expects you to somehow entice this vision from their mind and realise it.

Davin, im surprised youve had such a wholly negative experience of Brighton... i was under the impression it is full of people enjoying the fact that their houses have tripled in value in the last 20 years and therefore happy to splash out on improvements, though to be honest I havent been advertising or done any work for joe public in town yet...

 

[Keith 66]

I was a boatbuilder, i learnt that there are a lot of people out there with big ideas & shallow pockets. 35 years of wooden & grp boatbuilding & im still skint. But i did enjoy it!

 

[tomatwark]

Get a deposit off the customer if you feel that they are messing around, I have found as I have expanded I get more time wasters who want you to design a kitchen then come back and then come back and say yes they like the design but can you just change this and that, then decide that they can't afford it, and use your ideas elsewhere.

Also try to add something to the design that the likes of Howdens can't do, this will mean that if they want that item the will need to have a bespoke kitchen made and therefore you should have a better chance of pricing like for like.

I generally get a deposit now before I do a major redraw, this weeds out the time wasters.

You learn to get a feel of the really committed customers.

The other thing is never give the customer a drawing with measurements as that means that someone else can make the kitchen with out having to do the leg work and under cut you.

 

[skipdiver]

I am currently about to start my tenth and last week of a mammoth job for my niece and it has been a total nightmare from start to finish. I was quickly designated as the project manager by all the other trades because i am the family of the client. Everyone was asking me to make decisions that my niece was failing to make, not understanding that her indecision would have consequences further down the line. Every time i asked her what she wanted, the reply was "do you need to know now, as i'm late for work/taking kids to school/going out for drinks with mates/got a hangover/can't decide" and myriad other reasons why the choice of where she wanted lights/sockets etc was deemed less important than her busy lifestyle. Of course, i am now chopping holes in newly plastered ceilings to move light fittings and other such delights too many to mention. Only yesterday she informed me that the pewter handles she chose " in a hurry" are no longer wanted and can she have those nice copper ones she has just seen on the internet. The fact that the hand built and hand painted kitchen cupboard doors now have holes drilled in them for the original handles and the new ones have different centres is lost on her. "Can't you just fill them and paint them again" she says. Add to that her husband is a complete control freak with OCD who spends mot of his time putting my level on everything i do and it's not a happy situation. He also has totally different tastes to her and there is a constant battle about materials and finish.

Many years experience should have taught me to go into this job with everything firmed up and decided on as far as you can with these jobs, but i've been semi retired and working for myself in my home workshop for a while and i had taken my eye off the ball. I had forgotten what can be the worst part of this job, namely the clients. Throw in the fact that they are friends or family and the problems double.

I readily admit that i let this job get away from me and have had many a sleepless night and fruitless day on the job, all the while getting more and more flak from customers who have been living in a building site for over 2 months, when they think it should have been done in much less time. I won't even get started on the wayward budget and the fact that i will walk away with nowhere near what i should be getting for all the time i have put in and all the aggro i have had to put up with. My older brother would never work for family and everyone gave him stick for it, but he was right, it's a mare. This job will definitely be my swansong and i can't wait to get back to making stuff in my workshop for one client, who i have spent over a year moulding to my way of thinking.

Apart from all that, it's the best job ever being self employed. Be firm and decisive with people is my advice and good luck to you.

 

[Bill Derr]

Hello,

When first starting, I would not expect to make a lot of money by using family and friends as clients. I would (did) use the experience as a learning exercise to add to my kills,

Mike.

I know what you mean, there has been a few I could have happily killed, usually those with champagne tastes and lemonade pockets.

:wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: