Chisel primary bevel sharpening.

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David C":3ryjrwhl said:
Don't use gouges much. Generally in cannel.

Many people make fancy ones for woodturning gouges though, like Tormek.

David

I had that tormek jig at one point. It is slow, tedious and generally too coarse working for really sharpening carving tools. It takes seconds on each grit to do them freehand, or following an old text just sharpening on a single washita stone and if needed, touching up the very edge with a burnisher or "a strop with emery" as the book suggests.

People who refuse to sharpen freehand are just making things infinitely harder and more onerous for themselves, and at the same time, limiting what they can sharpen to what they can buy for. if they sharpen freehand, within months, they can quickly figure out how to sharpen anything.

of course, that requires someone to buy a reasonable and more practical sharpening stone for gouges than soft waterstones, which some people are averse to because they "need fast cutting sharpening stones", as they have trouble separating honing from grinding.
 
Corneel":28xiw0up said:
We had the same discussion some time ago when I came up with a long list of tools that didn't fit a jig. Gouges and moulding plane irons of course. But also the drawknife, the axe and broadaxe, mortise chisel, deey cambered scrubplane iron, knife, spokeshave, routerplane etc. In the meantime there have been some tremendous developments in the field of sharpening jigs. We have the drawsharp at something like 80 euro. LV came with the narrow chisel jaws for their MK2. LN of course with the new jig, forgot the price, plus separate jaws at an additional price. IF I remember correctly they even have mortise chisel jaws that are too small for pig stickers ( but oh well, just throw them oldfashioned things in the bin). When you want to sharpen your LN mortise chisel you unscrew the standard jaws and replace them with the mortise ones, recalculate the projection ratio and of you go. After first flattening your stones of course. And oiling the small wheel. Oh, and now we need a Tormek too. With all the jigs of course. .......
Don't forget the 12 year old single malt Honerite 1, matured in old sherry barrels to impart the colour and bouquet. Only £65 a litre.
Corneel":28xiw0up said:
....
In the meantime nothing happened on the freehand front. It's still the same old routine. When the chisel is dull, turn around to the stones, plop the edge ontk them and move it back and forth. Strop a bit and return to work. Couldn't they think up something more exciting?
I tend to look out of the window when I'm sharpening. Hope that helps.
 
Do people who don't use guides specialize in sarcasm?

Seems like it.

Some tools fit, some don't.

David
 
Do they also try to mislead?

Mortice chisels fit, spokeshave blades fit with the same simple piece of wood that many hand sharpeners use.

Router plane blades can also be done with a bit of wood and some wit. (spelling?)

Scrub plane blades work fine and some knives.

David C
 
David C":2l4ba0ih said:
....
Scrub plane blades work fine and some knives.

David C
Scrub planes (steeply cambered blade) are one of the easiest things to sharpen freehand but a major challenge to jiggers. Freehand it's a bit like spooning the cream off a bowl of trifle or something - a scoop and twist as you go. Have a go Dave - I know you can do it. Practice on a trifle?
 
David, I wish I was organised enough to find anything in 5 seconds, particularly the thing I just had.
Corneel, mortice chisels fit just fine in my honing guide, including pigstickers, indeed they are one of the few tools I use them for as I hone them at 35 degrees.
Whenever these arguments happen here I feel like I'm just not committed enough to one camp or the other. Basically I find high angles easier with the guide and 30 degrees or lower easier freehand. I'll never be a true craftsman until I decide which side I'm on in the sharpening war.
I hope these fence posts were well hammered in to the ground as I'm gonna stay sitting on it
 
Jacob":1dcght8m said:
David C":1dcght8m said:
....
Scrub plane blades work fine and some knives.

David C
Scrub planes (steeply cambered blade) are one of the easiest things to sharpen freehand but a major challenge to jiggers. Freehand it's a bit like spooning the cream off a bowl of trifle or something - a scoop and twist as you go. Have a go Dave - I know you can do it. Practice on a trifle?


Hello,

Funny this, a few years ago there was a thread about scrub planes, and Jacob did not know what they were for! When he was put straight about their use, he began to repeat the correct usage as if he'd invented the damn things and when queried as to why he was doing so, replied. "I changed my mind"

How is he now, does one suppose, suddenly giving 'expert' guidance on the subject and correcting everyone on their techniques! Yes, definitely misleading information.

Mike.
 
Regardless, he's correct. They're sharpened nearly the same motion as you'd use on a gouge, and quickly. It's foolish to do them any way other than freehand.

Of course, he may not have known what a scrub plane was because they are generally a fashion tool sold by premium makers these days with appeal to a group of people who never dimension wood by hand, and wouldn't really have any use for them.

A rank set jack does the job as quickly and leaves a little bit flatter troughs. (of course, it's sharpened in a similar side to side or diagonal way in a matter of seconds).

Have you ever seen a vintage stanley scrub plane with a really short iron? I haven't.

If the premium makers made a plane with an iron shaped like an upside down Christmas tree and told beginners that it was the deepest digging plane ever, they could sell tons of them.

I have done quite a bit of rough to finished work on woods with planes only and I haven't used a scrub plane in years. When I did use them on ugly wood that had some twist and unruly grain, they created a huge mess, and their action (friction) was worse than a wooden plane with a rank set blade.

I'll bet they'll continue to be bought (new and used) and sold in a condition that suggests little use, while inexpensive jack planes will continue to be described as a "poor substitute for a scrub because the iron isn't as heavy".
 
I don't think anyone's mentioned the option of bringing the "stone" to the "edge" - rather that vice versa - I use diamond paddles, or wet/dry paper on dowels/profiles for otherwise difficult shaped/sized edges. Cheers W2S

PS I recently bought a Veritas scrub plane and I really like it - allows me to straighten/clean up riven timbers (split with wedges) with less waste before either putting them through the jointer/planer or bandsaw and/or using a jack plane on them. I could have doctored an old Stanley No.4 as Paul Sellers shows us how to do, but I chose to spend a bit of extra cash and haven't regretted it yet.
 
Woody2Shoes":253k5i84 said:
I don't think anyone's mentioned the option of bringing the "stone" to the "edge" - rather that vice versa - I use diamond paddles, or wet/dry paper on dowels/profiles for otherwise difficult shaped/sized edges. Cheers W2S

Funny you should say that - the "old way" (Moxon 1703) is indeed to bring the stone to the edge, for those that know a little about the history of the craft.

I guess Jacob's recommending a new fangled way. Must be a fashion thing.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

BugBear

PS NB etc. My website shows a scrub blade being rather sharpened with a jig, easily, quickly and (if I say myself) rather well.
 
Woody2Shoes":193baj6z said:
I don't think anyone's mentioned the option of bringing the "stone" to the "edge" - rather that vice versa - I use diamond paddles, or wet/dry paper on dowels/profiles for otherwise difficult shaped/sized edges. Cheers W2S

PS I recently bought a Veritas scrub plane and I really like it - allows me to straighten/clean up riven timbers (split with wedges) with less waste before either putting them through the jointer/planer or bandsaw and/or using a jack plane on them. I could have doctored an old Stanley No.4 as Paul Sellers shows us how to do, but I chose to spend a bit of extra cash and haven't regretted it yet.

It's the no 5 set as a jack, or even better, an old wooden jack that you want for that work. I could never understand the virtue in setting up a 4 for that. It's too short.
 
woodbrains":kgqjon75 said:
Jacob":kgqjon75 said:
David C":kgqjon75 said:
....
Scrub plane blades work fine and some knives.

David C
Scrub planes (steeply cambered blade) are one of the easiest things to sharpen freehand but a major challenge to jiggers. Freehand it's a bit like spooning the cream off a bowl of trifle or something - a scoop and twist as you go. Have a go Dave - I know you can do it. Practice on a trifle?


Hello,

Funny this, a few years ago there was a thread about scrub planes, and Jacob did not know what they were for! When he was put straight about their use, he began to repeat the correct usage as if he'd invented the damn things and when queried as to why he was doing so, replied. "I changed my mind"

How is he now, does one suppose, suddenly giving 'expert' guidance on the subject and correcting everyone on their techniques! Yes, definitely misleading information.

Mike.

That is funny! :lol:

Jacob, I am curious, do you use machines to dimension the majority of your boards? If so, do you use a scrub or jack plane, and why?

David (DW), a question for you too (in case you feel left out :D ): I know you have purchased and used enough stones (water, oil, etc) to recreate the Taj Mahal ... possibly with a little left over to build a shed at the rear for your non-machines. I am curious to know, when you were emptying all the quarries, whether you listened to the advice of others (except your wife - I know you were hiding these wares from her by pretending they were for a boundary wall), who told you that your search was fruitless and that you should instead just concentrate on one stone .. or return to scary sharp? :)

It strikes me that there is no woodworking forum quite like a handtool forum, and no thread like a sharpening topic to bring out the extreme views in everyone. What would be interesting to do is revisit this thread in 5 years and see what is the same or different. (How any sharpening systems have you had in the past 5 years? I have had at least two).

Regards from Perth

Derek
(who believes there is a place for a honing guide and has nearly every one under the sun - not as many as DW has stones :) - but mainly hones freehand).
 
Small belt sanders are starting to look good as a method for removing a lot of material for a primary bevel. But also for finer grinding and honing. I see the method is realized commercially in the form of a sorby pro edge. How fine a finish can you get on such a machine, does it need any honing on a water or oil stone afterwards, or perhaps just a strop?

Also does it matter if you grind and hone the bevel sideways rather back and forth as is the norm? There was some old guy from america who talked with a thick accent who did it sideways I remember.

That seems to me could work well on a small belt grinder if you can't afford a sorby which uses a 2" wide belt, then yo wouldn't be limited by a narrow belt and could grind very wide irons, and it would be easy to get the right angle, just draw some lines on the table for future reference.


For reference I have two stones, one diamond plate that is just labeled "fine" and one cheap 3 euro aluminum oxide thingy from the hardware store. I also have a jig, it's mainly used to get a straight and even primary bevel.
 
DennisCA":ct2e3men said:
Small belt sanders are starting to look good as a method for removing a lot of material for a primary bevel. But also for finer grinding and honing. I see the method is realized commercially in the form of a sorby pro edge. How fine a finish can you get on such a machine, does it need any honing on a water or oil stone afterwards, or perhaps just a strop?

Also does it matter if you grind and hone the bevel sideways rather back and forth as is the norm? There was some old guy from america who talked with a thick accent who did it sideways I remember. ...................
For some years I've used a 100mm x 915mm bench belt/disk sander with Zirconia sanding belt for metal.
http://www.abtec4abrasives.com/100mm-x-915mm-zirconia-sanding-belt-price-per-3-belts-532-p.asp
120 grit removes metal quite fast enough and gives a very nice almost polished finish.
57680.jpg

The belt can be used horizontally or vertically (as photo)
 
woodbrains":3h6hkfg8 said:
Jacob":3h6hkfg8 said:
David C":3h6hkfg8 said:
....
Scrub plane blades work fine and some knives.

David C
Scrub planes (steeply cambered blade) are one of the easiest things to sharpen freehand but a major challenge to jiggers. Freehand it's a bit like spooning the cream off a bowl of trifle or something - a scoop and twist as you go. Have a go Dave - I know you can do it. Practice on a trifle?


Hello,

Funny this, a few years ago there was a thread about scrub planes, and Jacob did not know what they were for! When he was put straight about their use, he began to repeat the correct usage as if he'd invented the damn things and when queried as to why he was doing so, replied. "I changed my mind"

How is he now, does one suppose, suddenly giving 'expert' guidance on the subject and correcting everyone on their techniques! Yes, definitely misleading information.

Mike.
This is true. I wasn't so interested in trad tools and a "scrub" plane was virtually unknown in the UK, though Record had a go at making one which is a very rare collectors piece. Recently reintroduced from the wild by our old retro tool friends. Since then they have been over promoted as being an essential first plane in the process.
Interestingly I found an original user made example in a box of old tools and in the meantime bought an Ulmia.
 
[.....

Jacob, I am curious, do you use machines to dimension the majority of your boards? If so, do you use a scrub or jack plane, and why? ......
I use a machine for work. Before I had one I did a lot of work by hand with my one plane a Record 5 1/2, for everything. I've always been using them as necessary, but I got more interested in hand tools a lot later.
 
DennisCA":1ayyjhw1 said:
Small belt sanders are starting to look good as a method for removing a lot of material for a primary bevel. But also for finer grinding and honing. I see the method is realized commercially in the form of a sorby pro edge. How fine a finish can you get on such a machine, does it need any honing on a water or oil stone afterwards, or perhaps just a strop?.....
I use the Pro edge for coarse grinding but finish by hand on an oil stone. There are fine belts available for honing and polishing but more trouble than they are worth IMHO
DennisCA":1ayyjhw1 said:
......
That seems to me could work well on a small belt grinder if you can't afford a sorby which uses a 2" wide belt, then yo wouldn't be limited by a narrow belt and could grind very wide irons, and it would be easy to get the right angle, just draw some lines on the table for future reference.......
Yes definitely - it works really well. I've done it a lot and you can do it easily freehand without any special kit. The proedge is overkill really
 
Woody2Shoes":2npipfiu said:
.....
PS I recently bought a Veritas scrub plane and I really like it - allows me to straighten/clean up riven timbers (split with wedges) with less waste before either putting them through the jointer/planer or bandsaw and/or using a jack plane on them. I could have doctored an old Stanley No.4 as Paul Sellers shows us how to do, but I chose to spend a bit of extra cash and haven't regretted it yet.
That's the sort of job for a scrub, though a lot easier with the very light Ulmia or any similar woody. The steel ones never caught on in a big way as most people just used an old plane for rough work - or an axe even. Adze would have been the even more trad way.
I found the scrub really good for cleaning up old reclaimed timber - the deep cut is mostly into clean wood underneath and avoids most of the grit and stuff on the surface
 
Dennis and Roger raise the topic of small belt sanders. This open us to an interesting question.

Belt sanders can do an excellent job of preparing a primary bevel. FWW mag posted an jig I built 10 years ago (although I have not used it much over the past several years) ...

BeltSanderGrinderMkI_html_m661c553.jpg


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTe ... erMkI.html

One now has three choices: (1) freehand on the resulting flat primary bevel, which is very inefficient (unless you are honing a laminated blade) (2) add a secondary bevel with a guide, or (3) add a secondary bevel freehand.

Now the question is, which produces the better edge - one freehanded or one via a honing guide?

Regards from Perth

Derek
 

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