Chipped edges on new planes and do new planes need sharpening before use?

[Just4Fun]

I have never been offered driving lessons when I bought a vehicle

Me neither, but then I have never bought a high-performance sports car. Exotic car manufacturers do offer lessons, for example Porsche.

 

[Andy Kev.]

Having thought a bit more about this, it seems to me that dealers could offer a service while not having to greatly put themselves out. These days if you order something from a dealer, you get entered into their computer. Thus they could easily confirm if somebody was buying a plane from them for the first time. In such cases they could pop a copy of their own DVD on how to use planes and sharpen the blades in with the order. (From a commercial POV that would be a good way of advertising the sharpening kit which they offer.) Additionally they could sharpen the blade of this initial purchase. We all know that that doesn't take very long.

The dealer(s) who would be prepared to put in this bit of effort would probably reap the reward of generating a base of regular customers. Win-win as far as I can see.

Incidentally, Dictum in Germany puts a voucher in with its orders which entitles the owner to one free sharpening of whatever it is that they have bought. While that is superficially a nice bit of customer service, it seems to me to be missing the point because nobody who can sharpen would ever use it, nor does it do anything to get them sharpening. OTH the above model makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[pe2dave]

Re video, I note he doesn't take any sharp corners off the body itself?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

The heels and toes of all mine are rounded off, but I seem to remember the wisdom of taking the corners off the sides being open to debate.

 

[Bacms]

I am really not sure the charge would do much as, yes you may get the plane functional, but you have learned nothing about the process for the next time it gets blunt.

Putting instructions or a link to a video of what to do with that tool when it arrives and keep it in top condition would be more useful in my opinion but how many people actually bother to read the documentation? I work in software development and I can guarantee that despite the huge effort some companies put into it you still get plenty of "problems" that are solved by pointing the customer at the manual.

 

[AJB Temple]

Having thought a bit more about this, it seems to me that dealers could offer a service while not having to greatly put themselves out. These days if you order something from a dealer, you get entered into their computer. Thus they could easily confirm if somebody was buying a plane from them for the first time. In such cases they could pop a copy of their own DVD on how to use planes and sharpen the blades in with the order. (From a commercial POV that would be a good way of advertising the sharpening kit which they offer.) Additionally they could sharpen the blade of this initial purchase. We all know that that doesn't take very long.

The dealer(s) who would be prepared to put in this bit of effort would probably reap the reward of generating a base of regular customers. Win-win as far as I can see.

Incidentally, Dictum in Germany puts a voucher in with its orders which entitles the owner to one free sharpening of whatever it is that they have bought. While that is superficially a nice bit of customer service, it seems to me to be missing the point because nobody who can sharpen would ever use it, nor does it do anything to get them sharpening. OTH the above model makes a lot of sense to me.

Sadly, the world has gone on-line and most people shop by price. Your model made sense 20 years ago but not now. There is precious little dealer loyalty any more because price rules. Once you know what you are doing, and can sharpen / assemble tools, there is no added value beyond going for the cheapest seller of the brand you want.

 

[Andy Kev.]

Sadly, the world has gone on-line and most people shop by price. Your model made sense 20 years ago but not now. There is precious little dealer loyalty any more because price rules. Once you know what you are doing, and can sharpen / assemble tools, there is no added value beyond going for the cheapest seller of the brand you want.

I'm sure that you're right in terms of any mass market goods. However, in terms of things like high end hand planes, how many different dealers is one likely to use? Price difference is probably not going to be an incentive as nobody significantly discounts Clifton, Veritas or L-N planes. What I suspect that adds up to is that specialist dealers have a somewhat better chance of building up a relationship with their customers than would e.g. Aldi.

From what I've seen on here, Peter Sefton seems to have managed that. You can't buy a good reputation or a good track record.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

... you still get plenty of "problems" that are solved by pointing the customer at the manual.

RTFM is a favourite in our house. Read the f*****g manual!

 

[Eshmiel]

I am really not sure the charge would do much as, yes you may get the plane functional, but you have learned nothing about the process for the next time it gets blunt.

You'd have learnt what a sharp blade in a plane feels like to use - a benchmark for testing your own future efforts to sharpen. Knowing what "sharp" feels like is the number one hurdle for those trying to learn to sharpen.

Putting instructions or a link to a video of what to do with that tool when it arrives and keep it in top condition would be more useful in my opinion but how many people actually bother to read the documentation? I work in software development and I can guarantee that despite the huge effort some companies put into it you still get plenty of "problems" that are solved by pointing the customer at the manual.

Those who don't RTFM are surely the most in need of a sharp plane out of the box ....? And maybe also that Dictum sharpening offer.

********
Personally I don't think it's so easy as many here make out to learn to sharpen a plane blade as well as it can be sharpened; or to configure the process to achieve the more esoteric features such as various cambers, back bevels and the like. There's good reason that people like David Charlesworth offer detailed courses and DVDs to teach the process - along with all the other tweaking of a plane to make it work well.

Many such as thee and me will now be adept at dealing with edge tool maintenance, improvement and change. But is it really so simple to learn all the necessary procedures - to get all the necessary understanding - as some Youtube guru men make out? These guru men forget that they themselves probably spent a lot of hours learning it all before boiling it down to a 15 minute vid. Many commenting here will have been shown how to sharpen by an expert in a commercial environment. Most plane buyers have no such helpmeet.

It's a huge lesson all by itself to know how a plane ought to function before you attempt to make one work by learning to sharpen et al. That lesson should be in the box, in the form of a plane that's ready to use, as with 99.9% of other sold goods.

I'll repeat:

* There's too much noise about unsharp plane blades in new planes to ignore it as just stupid and ignorant new users.

* One can make a thousand analogies with other tools that come ready to use and which would be deemed unfit if they weren't; with far fewer cases where a customer expects to have to finish the manufacturing process herself.

********
"Many bicycle buyers can't even mend a puncture and will have to learn if they don't want to have to call the taxi of shame". Should we sell them all bikes with holes in the tyres & tubes to force them to learn, then? Perhaps we could rust up the chains and wear off the gear cogs too? How they will learn to maintain their bike (but not necessarily how to ride it).

Eshmiel

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

It is getting hard to follow this thread, without a written scorecard (said in jest), but there are bits of truth in every post. Maybe Eshmiel hit on it best of all, with his phrase "...unsharp plane blades...".

Venturing into any endeavor requires a bit of instruction, whether your teacher is in person & very experienced or done virually. Who bears the burden for the success of those venturing into new challenges? Hint: the person taking the journey. Did the new Woodriver plane work right out of the box? We don't know. Did it work after being sorted out by a forum member? Yes!

So...how do we help newbies get from A to B? Maybe more burden needs placed on the newbie to at least put their hiking boots on instead of trying to walk over hot coals, barefooted?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Don't forget also that many of us learned to sharpen things at school, which is an opportunity lost to many younger people.

 

[Bod]

Tis, a nice idea that chisels, and planes be sharp out of the box, be it dealer or manufacturers sharpening.
What happens, as in this case, the new owner trys to do the impossible with the tool.
The number of planes I've seen where it has clearly been used to try to plane down a painted door, with a nail hidden under the paint. Makes me wonder how many electric planes are sitting in land-fill for the want of new blades.

Bod.

 

[MikeG.]

Don't forget also that many of us learned to sharpen things at school, which is an opportunity lost to many younger people.

I didn't get that. I just saw my dad use an oilstone when I was an 8 or 10 year old.....and trying to remember what he did 10 years later when I got my first tools led to about 5 years of frustration and self learning. The penny finally dropped when I remembered seeing him feel the back of the edge, and worked out that he must have been feeling for something. I worked out eventually that this was for a burr, and when creating a burr became the focus of my sharpening, I finally managed a consistent result. Ten minutes with someone who knew what he was doing could have saved me 5 years of frustration.

 

[Andy Kev.]

Don't forget also that many of us learned to sharpen things at school, which is an opportunity lost to many younger people.

I'm glad that you posted that.

I got to school just after woodwork was ditched as an option. Subsequently I made the odd thing from bits of melamine-coated (if I remember rightly) chipboard and the odd bit of plywood which I got cut to size in the timber yard and my "woodworking" consisted of screwing them together.

When I started woodworking about ten years ago, I was clueless but determined. My previous experience of making things was the above plus assembling Airfix plane kits when I was a lad. It dawned on me the other day that one of the most satisfying things about woodworking is the first time that you end up with a few parts which started life together in the same rough-sawn plank and end up fitting together as well, if not better, than in any Airfix kit.

Getting to that point is hard work if you know nobody who can show you and if you can't find the time to get on courses. I didn't and couldn't and so it was a matter of DVDs (thank you Mr Charlesworth!) and books (thank you Lost Art Press!) and of course this forum - thanks to many of you!

Those with expertise often forget how clueless a beginner can be. When I decided that I needed my first plane, I went to the Dictum shop in Munich and told the bloke that I was a total beginner. He was friendly enough and pointed me at the plane display and a clamped piece of wood and said that I could help myself. After a few minutes he walked by to see how I was getting on and said the German equivalent of, "Bloody Hell! You really are a beginner, aren't you?" "Yep", says I, "never had a plane in my hands before."

Then he became helpful in a way more suitable to me and I left with a Veritas LAJ, which has since proved to me that his advice was good.

About a month ago a friend of mine expressed an interest in learning about woodwork. I put a No 4 in her hands and guided her attack on a piece of American poplar. I swear she learned more in half an hour than I did in my first three months. There's nothing quite as efficient as having somebody there who can point you in the right direction.

I think that the point of all this is to perhaps think again when we are inclined to say, "You can do X in a couple of minutes". Yes you can, once you know how but before you know how, you can't do it at all.

 

[Andy Kev.]

I didn't get that. I just saw my dad use an oilstone when I was an 8 or 10 year old.....and trying to remember what he did 10 years later when I got my first tools led to about 5 years of frustration and self learning. The penny finally dropped when I remembered seeing him feel the back of the edge, and worked out that he must have been feeling for something. I worked out eventually that this was for a burr, and when creating a burr became the focus of my sharpening, I finally managed a consistent result. Ten minutes with someone who knew what he was doing could have saved me 5 years of frustration.

You beat me to it!

 

[MikeG.]

You beat me to it!

You went into a bit more detail.

 

[AJB Temple]

I'm glad that you posted that.

I got to school just after woodwork was ditched as an option. Subsequently I made the odd thing from bits of melamine-coated (if I remember rightly) chipboard and the odd bit of plywood which I got cut to size in the timber yard and my "woodworking" consisted of screwing them together.

When I started woodworking about ten years ago, I was clueless but determined. My previous experience of making things was the above plus assembling Airfix plane kits when I was a lad. It dawned on me the other day that one of the most satisfying things about woodworking is the first time that you end up with a few parts which started life together in the same rough-sawn plank and end up fitting together as well, if not better, than in any Airfix kit.

Getting to that point is hard work if you know nobody who can show you and if you can't find the time to get on courses. I didn't and couldn't and so it was a matter of DVDs (thank you Mr Charlesworth!) and books (thank you Lost Art Press!) and of course this forum - thanks to many of you!

Those with expertise often forget how clueless a beginner can be. When I decided that I needed my first plane, I went to the Dictum shop in Munich and told the bloke that I was a total beginner. He was friendly enough and pointed me at the plane display and a clamped piece of wood and said that I could help myself. After a few minutes he walked by to see how I was getting on and said the German equivalent of, "Bloody Hell! You really are a beginner, aren't you?" "Yep", says I, "never had a plane in my hands before."

Then he became helpful in a way more suitable to me and I left with a Veritas LAJ, which has since proved to me that his advice was good.

About a month ago a friend of mine expressed an interest in learning about woodwork. I put a No 4 in her hands and guided her attack on a piece of American poplar. I swear she learned more in half an hour than I did in my first three months. There's nothing quite as efficient as having somebody there who can point you in the right direction.

I think that the point of all this is to perhaps think again when we are inclined to say, "You can do X in a couple of minutes". Yes you can, once you know how but before you know how, you can't do it at all.

You are right. This is why I offered to show Sebastian how to sharpen and use a plane, and try the likes of Clifton and some old planes, versus his Wood River. He would have left with enough knowledge not to screw it up in future. My dad taught me how to sharpen. His dad taught him. Now we have You Tube.

 

[Bacms]

Now we have You Tube.

I think it does come down to youtube. Which, although it does open up learning for a lot of folks that would otherwise not have a way of doing it, provides no feedback when you are actually are on your own as a beginner you have no idea what is important and what isn't. And as been already mention if you want fast progress, which again youtube and the world seems to demand, then there is no substitute to having someone looking over you should and going, wait...

 

[AJB Temple]

Half the problem is we don't always know what we don't know. Some people compound this by trying to give the impression they do know, when it is evident they don't.

 

[Fidget]

Back when I had access to a friend's workshop about 15 years ago and rekindled my love for butchering wood I made quite a few bits of furniture, tables, chairs, even beds which I still use and think are of an ok level of workmanship, it was all made using only power tools. I couldn't use a hand plane at all because I didn't know how, or how to sharpen it. It is only when I joined this forum 3 years ago when my present workshop was being built and started lurking, reading all the threads I could and marvelling at the knowledge that was being imparted that I started trying to use hand tools more. The sharpening threads were always interesting!

Now I have a few old planes which are a joy to use.

So, I suppose, Thank You to all the members here who share your knowledge.

Doesn't help the OP though!