Chipped edges on new planes and do new planes need sharpening before use?

[AndyT]

We had a thread about whether tools should be "sharp out of the box" very recently. Here's a link to it, to save repeating three pages of discussion.

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/should-it-be-sharp-out-of-the-box.124400/

 

[Bacms]

To be honest I am not sure this applies here. I never saw the planes undamaged but he disassembled them and introduced a few problems in the reassembly so their original state would have been a moot point

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

It's something of a cop-out for tool dealers and resellers to simply add their cut of the profit to an item that isn't really in a fit state to work properly. What else would you buy that wasn't in a fit condition to be used without significant buyer work to make it functional? In most cases, you'd return it not because it wasn't fixable (by you or anyone else) but because it hadn't already been fixed by the purveyor when it could have been.

Lie-Nielsen and Veritas produce planes and chisels that are ready to work out of the box - even though a savvy user can improve the edge by way of a micro-bevel or a quick hone to super (rather than merely functional) sharpness. Why don't all manufacturers of planes and chisels do this? One answer is that it would increase the cost. But that's true of any sold-article (the vast majority) that comes ready to use. The cost includes making it function without the buyer having to perform the final manufacturing processes.

Surely the manufacturer should make their wares not just fit for purpose but also ready for purpose. Manufacturers of most things do this, including tool manufacturers. You don't have to finally shape the end of your screwdriver or sharpen the teeth of your circular saw blade after you remove them from the packaging.

We seem to have got used to the notion that some things must be ready to use but others are for the user to make ready. What differentiates the two modes other than some peculiar tradition? Is there a reason that many plane blades and chisels should often come unready to be used whilst most other things are ready?

Eshmiel

I'm referring to rank beginners, as the OP was, and I'm suggesting an optional upcharge. I've been at this longer than many here have been alive, but I can still see how some just entering this hobby, could be frustrated at being incapable of making a shaving. Instead, I'm suggesting giving newbies a push down the slope!

 

[Droogs]

Tony you manufacture tools/machine don't you? Are they ready to go out the box or do customers need to do a DIY install. Not being cheeky, just out of interest. for a plane how much in expense would you think it would work out to to have it ready to go fully set up.

 

[shed9]

It's something of a cop-out for tool dealers and resellers to simply add their cut of the profit to an item that isn't really in a fit state to work properly. .......... Is there a reason that many plane blades and chisels should often come unready to be used whilst most other things are ready?

Eshmiel

To be fair, the reseller in this instance is Peter Sefton and his reputation certainly exceeds that of merely someone adding their cut. As for the 'sharp out of the box conundrum', I think once you're purchasing Quangsheng / Woordriver planes, whilst not LN / Veritas territory, they are definitely a next step up from big-box store tools. People mostly know what they are heading into when they wander into that side of tool purchasing, except sometimes as stated above there is a mismatch in user expectation mixed with user inexperience and in this case there was clearly some frustration. That said I do see the argument of tools being ready to go, just not sure this is relevant in this case is all.

Wasn't played out the best way it could have but Sebastian did reach out and things were sorted. Yes, part of one thread of many on a UK wood working forum may not make sense to the few who search it out in the future but I suspect the world will keep turning.

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

Tony you manufacture tools/machine don't you? Are they ready to go out the box or do customers need to do a DIY install. Not being cheeky, just out of interest. for a plane how much in expense would you think it would work out to to have it ready to go fully set up.

I own a powder metal part manufacturing business (metaltech-pm.com), making parts for new cars. Besides the PM process, I have in-house tool making and five CNC machining centers. Though I deal with the likes of Ford, Honda, etc, with repeat orders, a great deal of support is needed.

For the supplier of the Woodriver Planes (Peter Sefton, IIRC), I think honing of the blade and a basic setup of the chipbreaker, would be worth an additional charge of $50.00 US. Wht that amount? In the states, a machine shop's hourly rate ranges from around $45 to $75 dollars. I would figure a flattening of the blade, a honing and setting to chipbreaker, should take a bit less than an hour, for a new plane, such as the Woodriver, hence the $50. Some makes might take more, some less.

Those interested in this would be very, very few, as most newbies have chums to guide them, but there are a few that don't.

 

[Andy Kev.]

I like Tony's suggestion of dealers offering a fine fettling service for a small additional charge. It seems to me that it would offer two great advantages:

a. The dealer would be reassured that no duff goods were leaving the premises.

b. The beginner would not be baffled due to lack of experience meaning that he/she wouldn't be able to spot what needed doing to the plane.

The dealer could also produce a simple guide to using and maintaining the plane (a DVD perhaps?) and enclose it with the tool. Obviously that would only be a one off bit of work for the dealer. Additionally, the dealer's notes would inevitably include tips on sh**pening, something which may well lead to follow up orders for the relevant bits of kit.

I also reckon that such a move would further distinguish tool dealers who actually care about what they are selling and about their customers from mere peddlars of tools. If you are paying 200 plus for a plane, a charge of 10 or 15 quid would probably be a good investment for the beginner and an excellent opportunity for the dealer to generate customer loyalty. A really clever dealer would probably be so confident in such an approach and the future benefits for him that the checking of the tool and DVD would be free of charge.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

. What else would you buy that wasn't in a fit condition to be used without significant buyer work to make it functional?

Obviously you've never bought a new bandsaw.

 

[MikeG.]

I like Tony's suggestion of dealers offering a fine fettling service for a small additional charge..........

It's an interesting idea, but it does lead to a legal grey area, potentially, I reckon. If the purchaser is then unhappy with the tool and returns it, the dealer may be in a difficult position with the manufacturer, having altered the tool before supplying it. Is it the dealer's fault or the manufacturer's fault that the tool isn't to the customer's satisfaction? I can see dealer's being reluctant to get involved in this, unless they have a great relationship with the manufacturer, and unless they are 100% confident in their skills. I mean, why would a dealer be any good at honing a plane?

 

[shed9]

I think the discussion is slightly being conflated with that of quality control (or lack of it) and the varying degrees of value-added reselling. In this particular case and given the overall outcome the quality of the goods leaving Wood Workers Worksop (Peter Sefton's online shop) have clearly not been subject to poor quality control. From my own experience, Peter is quite particular in what he carries in stock, typically utilising some of the same tools used in his own student workshop. If his customers want a better blade than the stock WoodRiver tools then he offers the option of the Clifton's or the Veritas planes (again with other blade options within that range). He also has DVD's that assist in getting the most from the tool (in this instance, planes); Peter Sefton Chisel and Plane Sharpening DVD

Or if you want the Youtube version, he even posted several videos for free on how to setup an actual WoodRiver plane from opening the box, cleaning the plane, honing and final setup before demonstrating cutting fine shavings;

You can even meet him in person and he will show you how do it over a structure course; Furniture making courses

Good tool stores like Peter's are already going that extra mile, adding value to their shipped product and ultimately their customers with many options based on skill, expectation and budget. Peter is even a member on here to offer advice where he can (and learn from others). Also, as we have seen he reaches out to customers when the usual routes back to his store have for whatever reason been circumvented or delayed. Peter is a bonafide craftsman with the experience and awards to back that up.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Peter Sefton fanboy and I'm not saying that the idea of tool stores offering that extra edge (no pun intended) is not the way to go, I'm just making sure that we recognise that that is exactly what has happened here.

 

[Andy Kev.]

It's an interesting idea, but it does lead to a legal grey area, potentially, I reckon. If the purchaser is then unhappy with the tool and returns it, the dealer may be in a difficult position with the manufacturer, having altered the tool before supplying it. Is it the dealer's fault or the manufacturer's fault that the tool isn't to the customer's satisfaction? I can see dealer's being reluctant to get involved in this, unless they have a great relationship with the manufacturer, and unless they are 100% confident in their skills. I mean, why would a dealer be any good at honing a plane?

I think that the manufacturers know who the good dealers are i.e. the ones who are prepared to put in the bit of extra work in to keep customers happy and that probably boils down to just a handful e.g. Peter Sefton, Classic Hand Tools etc.

Were there concerns of quality control, the makers of fine planes (Clifton, L-N, Veritas) could award "accredited dealer" (or something similar) status because I'm sure the manufacturers know which dealers actually care and they are of course the sort of small business where members of staff are indeed likely to know how to hone a plane or to be able to train up staff to the required standard. I suppose it boils down to the question of do the manufacturers and the dealers think that such a move would be a worthwhile investment of their time and effort. IMO it would indeed be worth the effort when you consider what people have to pay for a top end plane. Ultimately they are paying for a tool in which they can have complete confidence, something which is particularly important for beginners who will often not know whether it is the tool or themselves at fault if they are getting less than ideal results.

 

[Daniel2]

Frankly speaking, there is no "cure" for the type of customer in question here.
It's the kind of person who, upon just passing their driving test, goes out and
buys a Ferrari, then promptly whacks it into the first lampost they meet.
Then trying to blame the seller, because the thing accelerated too quickly.
Don't try to run, before you have learned to walk applies to this thread.
Even if an edge tool was supplied ready to go from the box, it will very quickly
need a sharpening in any case, so the purchaser would still be faced with
having to learn that skill. This time period would be even more drastically
reduced in inexperienced hands. We're talking minutes here !
Whichever way we want to present it, there is no getting away from the simple
truth that, if we want to enjoy using hand tools, it will remain a prerequisite that one
masters the skill of their sharpening, from the start.

 

[AJB Temple]

Planes are sold to meet a price point. Adding $50 even optionally, just for sharpening and set up, will push stuff like Wood River closer to Clifton and LV territory.

Sebastian here managed to do significant chipping to two plane blades. It is quite possible that he would have achieved that however well the planes were sharpened and set up. Sharpening a plane blade and setting them in the tool is a very basic function and there is tons of help on-line from the likes of Peter Sefton, Rob Cosmann and other credible sources.

 

[Eshmiel]

To be fair, the reseller in this instance is Peter Sefton and his reputation certainly exceeds that of merely someone adding their cut. (snip)

To be clear, I wasn't criticising Peter Sefton or any other particular tool reseller; or using the Seb case as an exampl, even. I was replying to T's suggestion of adding a surcharge to fettle a tool not coming into a tool purveyor's shop already fettled by the manufacturer. In effect I agree with him but in the form of "that should happen automatically and the price should include everything needed to offer a tool that works out of the box".

I suppose some might prefer 10 or 15 % off the normal price at a cost to themselves of the time and expertise to fettle the tool. A bit like buying a kit car. Or a kit plane, for that matter. That would be OK - if the advertising and sales promotions made it clear which versions there were (fettled or not) and what the fettling would involve. We here only know those things because of experience and talk in places like this. Newbies seem not to.

Eshmiel

 

[shed9]

To be clear, I wasn't criticising Peter Sefton or any other particular tool reseller; or using the Seb case as an exampl, even.

I didn't think you were, I was just making sure we didn't lose sight of Peter being one of more end-user centric stores.

 

[lurker]

There is no point in having a ready to go plane as it just delays the need to learn how to fettle by 30 minutes use.
fancy tools are no substitute for ability.

 

[Eshmiel]

It's an interesting idea, but it does lead to a legal grey area, potentially, I reckon. If the purchaser is then unhappy with the tool and returns it, the dealer may be in a difficult position with the manufacturer, having altered the tool before supplying it. Is it the dealer's fault or the manufacturer's fault that the tool isn't to the customer's satisfaction? I can see dealer's being reluctant to get involved in this, unless they have a great relationship with the manufacturer, and unless they are 100% confident in their skills. I mean, why would a dealer be any good at honing a plane?

It's certainly not the customer's fault. But often, it's a customer who has all the inconvenience; and perhaps even the cost of a useless tool that wasn't, and won't ever be, fit for purpose.

Personally I believe a seller of anything should have the knowledge, skills, ability and resources to put right anything they sell that is wrong. Also that they should make significant effort to make sure that what they sell is fit for purpose before they sell it.

Some tool sellers are good at those things but some others are just middlemen passing an item from manufacturer to buyer with no added value, merely an added upcharge to make themselves a profit. If they haven't got the resources and ability to fix faulty or sub-standard goods (or prevent their sale in the first place) I personally will vote with my wallet and go elsewhere.

 

[Eshmiel]

There is no point in having a ready to go plane as it just delays the need to learn how to fettle by 30 minutes use.
fancy tools are no substitute for ability.

Let's do it with every manufactured item that needs maintenance, then. Nothing should work out of the box so that the lucky buyers have an opportunity to learn how to fix the bearings of their car engine or sharpen the blade in their lawnmower.

"30 minutes". You must be a busy lad. My plane blades keep their edge for days or even weeks following a sharpen! Mind, I don't use them 12 hours a day, 6 days a week to plane knotty spruce.

Eshmiel.

 

[Daniel2]

Let's do it with every manufactured item that needs maintenance, then. Nothing should work out of the box so that the lucky buyers have an opportunity to learn how to fix the bearings of their car engine or sharpen the blade in their lawnmower.

"30 minutes". You must be a busy lad. My plane blades keep their edge for days or even weeks following a sharpen! Mind, I don't use them 12 hours a day, 6 days a week to plane knotty spruce.

Eshmiel.

I do understand the point you're trying to make Eshmiel.
But, I do consider the likes of planes and chisels as somewhat of an exception
to the rule.

 

[Eshmiel]

Obviously you've never bought a new bandsaw.

I bought a new Scheppach bandsaw of the huge variety some 16 years ago from Kendal Tools. They delivered it, put it together, set it up and gave me a good lesson or three about how to keep it running well. They also offered the best price for it that I could find at the time and chucked in two free blades.

More money transferred from my wallet to the till of Kendal Tools as a consequence. If they had the item I wanted, I would go to them and no other. They offered a full and proper service rather than a crate of bits on a pallet delivered at the end of the drive for a £50 delivery charge and no help whatsoever in setting it up. (My experience of buying a huge and heavy belt sander from another more well-known tool seller).

Eshmiel