Chinese Copies of the Knew Concept Coping saws

[JoeSheffer]

Hi all,

On a course a little while ago i used a Knew concept coping saw. Now i know it's ridiculous, but it was a wonderful piece of kit and i quite fancy one. I'm in China fairly often and just spotted these copies being sold - they are sold by the same sellers who typically sell the luban/quangsheng brands. Has anyone tried one? Is it any good?

US $31.0 |3

 

[AJB Temple]

This may not be a popular view, but I am now and henceforth trying my best not to buy Chinese knock offs of someone else's designs. If that means I can't afford the real thing then so be it.

 

[JoeSheffer]

Suppose you're right.

 

[Awac]

LOL. This reminds me of a quote:

"It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better. "John Ruskin.

 

[Awac]

The problem with the Ruskin quote above is that many companies squeeze the Chinese manufacturing company to the wire and that cuts quality. They flood the market and refund quickly people who have problems and complain, they then get themselves a good name for customer relations, working on the assumption only 10% will complain and the quality cut has made them much more. So it is not only the person buying who drives this but the company selling.

I hate the environmental impact of this as well.

You have to ask when you buy expensive items if they have an ethical and environmental policy you can be emailed, most will not. This gives you some idea of how they operate, and if you are getting a well made product for your extra cash. Many companies also operate two brands for the same goods, is it any wonder some people choose not to be loyal and opt for cheaper versions?


Difficult isn't it? However if you find a company/person making good products at a fair price they should be supported IMO.

 

[cammy9r]

Quite a bit of difference in the frame between them both. I wonder if the knock off will perform as well as the Knew Concept. It could be made from a different alloy too. The whole point of this style is the stiffness of the frame is it not. Best thing to do is buy the knock off and report back here if it's quality is similar to the Kew Concept one, you have a 'frame' of reference .

 

[Andy Kev.]

The point about buying the Chinese copy is that it makes survival more difficult for innovators like Knew Concepts. Given that woodworking isn't a mass market activity, to me it makes sense to buy from the people who are committed to genuine quality. I'd hate to think of most tools being at Ikea levels of quality. Matt Eastlea's YouTube review of the Amazon No 4 plane underscores that idea.

It's essentially the same with those planes from China which are competing with Clifton, L-N and Veritas. I suppose it's fair enough to buy Chinese when the item in question is not made anywhere else.

 

[Mike Jordan]

I agree with the idea of not buying made in China if it can be avoided. I must be impossible to protect your designs and copywrite from the unscrupulous makers on the other side of the world and backed by a very unpleasant regime.
Most guilty on this side of the water are the drop shippers who sell knock off goods without any comeback. The internet is a curse in the this respect.
Even if it were possible, who could afford to take legal action against these thieves.
The only remedy is in our hands. Don't buy Chinese !

 

[Rorschach]

I agree with the idea of not buying made in China if it can be avoided. I must be impossible to protect your designs and copywrite from the unscrupulous makers on the other side of the world and backed by a very unpleasant regime.
Most guilty on this side of the water are the drop shippers who sell knock off goods without any comeback. The internet is a curse in the this respect.
Even if it were possible, who could afford to take legal action against these thieves.
The only remedy is in our hands. Don't buy Chinese !

Good luck buying anything. Pretty much everything you buy (that contain more than one component) has parts made in China. I am not sure of the rules in the UK, I think it is easier to hide that fact buy in the US they have to declare it so you get the line "Made in USA from Global Components".

 

[Jameshow]

The point about buying the Chinese copy is that it makes survival more difficult for innovators like Knew Concepts. Given that woodworking isn't a mass market activity, to me it makes sense to buy from the people who are committed to genuine quality. I'd hate to think of most tools being at Ikea levels of quality. Matt Eastlea's YouTube review of the Amazon No 4 plane underscores that idea.

It's essentially the same with those planes from China which are competing with Clifton, L-N and Veritas. I suppose it's fair enough to buy Chinese when the item in question is not made anywhere else.

I'd prefer to buy a plane from India rather than. China!

At least your paying a reasonable price for something that is what it is.

So often you buy something and then on closer inspection you find it's not actually made in the UK or wherever but in China. Chinese tools tarted up is only exacerbating the trade deficit.

Cheers James

 

[niemeyjt]

I agree with the idea of not buying made in China if it can be avoided. I must be impossible to protect your designs and copywrite from the unscrupulous makers on the other side of the world and backed by a very unpleasant regime.
Most guilty on this side of the water are the drop shippers who sell knock off goods without any comeback. The internet is a curse in the this respect.
Even if it were possible, who could afford to take legal action against these thieves.
The only remedy is in our hands. Don't buy Chinese !

Ditto - and added to the list of reasons not to buy Chinese is their atrocious human rights record. In the seventies and eighties some of us boycotted apartheid-era South Africa for far less.

 

[Benchwayze]

But it's a jeweller's saw. It's for removing waste; how can it improve dovetails? And anyhow I chop out dovetail waste like Klausz and Sellers. I have a sixty year old coping saw that gets little use. So it looks like new. For large curves I have a bow saw that will also remove dovetail waste and which is also old; and looks it! I think I'll manage without 'improved' dovetail tools that just remove waste.
If I was a Klausz I could use the bow saw to cut the joint but I use a Wenzloff saw for that. And my Western chisels are plenty sharp enough thank you.
If my physical condition improves enough then after the holidays I'll try and prove it!

John

 

[marcros]

I wonder whether the manufacturer has ever actually bought a knew concepts saw to copy. My guess is that they are only using web images. I would be certain that they will never have use one to understand the design features.

I would buy genuine or buy a vintage eclipse. I have the knew concepts. It is a nice saw to use. It may perform better for some, I bought it because I could afford it at the time and I liked it. I also bought it because it takes scroll saw blades and I know from on here there are endless options of those for cutting different materials. I have no idea what blades other saws take.

 

[G S Haydon]

An old eclipse works very nicely. If you want to avoid Chinese made tools then I don't think you can buy a new eclipse.

 

[D_W]

The point about buying the Chinese copy is that it makes survival more difficult for innovators like Knew Concepts. Given that woodworking isn't a mass market activity, to me it makes sense to buy from the people who are committed to genuine quality. I'd hate to think of most tools being at Ikea levels of quality. Matt Eastlea's YouTube review of the Amazon No 4 plane underscores that idea.

It's essentially the same with those planes from China which are competing with Clifton, L-N and Veritas. I suppose it's fair enough to buy Chinese when the item in question is not made anywhere else.

Our own American and English manufacturers gave us that Ikea level of quality for a while before we started seeing copies of anything, though. In this case, the innovator is deceased or retired and the knew concepts company is being run by a buyer or something of the sort.

I don't buy Chinese copies of tools, but am a bit less rabid than most Americans about copies that occur after a decade or two. Larger companies here are far more likely to take a liking to something you make and run you out of business. Amazon is at the top of the list of predatory companies outright copying listings from sellers, items and all, and running the off of the platforms.

 

[D_W]

If that's made by qs tool, btw, they're pretty much chief in charge of starting the boutique ripoff process by copying LN in plane instead of a bedrock, and a later version was remade to take the in frog copy and other bits out so the frog would look like bedrock. They also sold crude copies of Lee valley tools, and some of them were sold directly by Japan woodworker here, which has always been, in my opinion, a subpar business. One of the few places I've seen that sells items above retail and doubled Stu Tierney prices on anything both carried. Not sure if they're still selling the lv knock offs now that they're owned by woodcraft.

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

Search “YouTube” for videos named China Tools, and you will see blatant knock-offs of tools weeks after newly being introduced. This past week Amazon had a chamfer plane identical to the red anodized plane introduced by Woodpecker late this past summer, with the seller even using Woodpecker ad copy. Another seller had identical copies of the Woodpecker saddle squares, even with same model numbers (and red color).

In the final analysis though, are these tools truly needed? In the time it takes you to search out the chamfer plane, re-familiarize yourself with its use, you could have chamfered nicely with the #4 or the block plane at your side (I know, because I bought a chamfer plane, and my #3 is easier & quicker).

 

[billw]

I've been watching Dennis' China series for about an hour and IMHO with a bit of IP law knowledge, I really don't think the Chinese are doing anything wrong in most cases.

The Woodpecker saddle square for example, the colour is neither here nor there unless WP have sole rights over red tools, unlikely. The overall design is basically functional so not covered. The copies are not trying to pass off as Woodpecker by using their brand or a slight variant so trademarking isn't an issue.

Sure the model number thing is bordering on passing off, so it's not all crystal clear, but then again you couldn't trademark a serial number anyway. Using Woodpecker's advertising materials breaches copyright, so there's something but that's the seller rather than the product itself at fault.

However, in many cases the Chinese are just doing at a very accelerated pace what competitors generally do when they aren't first to market - copy.

 

[D_W]

Not sure how things work there, but in the US, trade dress is an area of law that covers more or less taking on the image of someone else's product with the intent to deceive. It brings us such hits as guitar peghead shapes being protected, but not most guitar body shapes (because the shape of a guitar body is functional).

Trade dress is expensive, and nothing woodpeckers makes would live up to it, plus, who would they sue and where?

As tony mentioned above, it takes little time before you see knock offs. I see the dead copies as laziness. What is the easiest thing to do if you're going to copy something that you don't know much about? Copy every single thing about it, because you are afraid you don't know enough to know what you can't copy.

The comment about tools being what you really need or don't need hits the mark, though. Who needs 20 more gimmick tools that do something specific a little bit faster than stuff you already have around, but you have to remember how to use them every time if you don't use them often. Not me.

My general thought about any limited tool is that the only reason you limit something is because you know it wouldn't sell well in the long term. If it does sell really well, then you can bring it back for another round or permanently, but pretend you're being generous. Did stanley bench planes have trouble generating continuous interest? Socket chisels? Disston and others' carpenters saws? Combination squares?

 

[JAW911]

No more Chinese tools for me. Recently made a router sled to cut mortared sides for small boxes using a 45 degree router cutter. Bought one from China which sadly wasn’t 45 degrees. Much fiddling to get the mortars to fit!
I have a Knew Concepts saw which is brilliant and worth it for me. I cut lots of brass sheet for making inlays and use good blades which is obviously important too.