Challenge - 18th century transport box design and materials?

[thetyreman]

I'm still not clear what you mean by 'processed wood' Thomas?

 

[JohnPW]

For the lightest weight, I'd go for an inner decorative wooden box which looks nice to hold and to present the items, and which does not need to be strong, and an outer cardboard box to provide protection.

A cardboard box can be very strong whilst being relatively lightweight, eg the boxes that hold fruit.

Obviously there will be padding in between the item and inner box, and between the inner and outer boxes.

 

[TheUnicorn]

How many boxes are you looking to make? If you are talking hundreds, with the same dimensions, it is probably worth buying them in flatpacked, once you've decided on a design.

 

[Thomas]

I'm still not clear what you mean by 'processed wood' Thomas?

Sorry. Processed is anything glued or pressed together, MDF, ply, strand board

 

[Thomas]

For the lightest weight, I'd go for an inner decorative wooden box which looks nice to hold and to present the items, and which does not need to be strong, and an outer cardboard box to provide protection.

A cardboard box can be very strong whilst being relatively lightweight, eg the boxes that hold fruit.

Obviously there will be padding in between the item and inner box, and between the inner and outer boxes.

Thanks J, yes I have planned a tight fitting outer single wall cardboard outer. Do you Think that's enough?

 

[Thomas]

How many boxes are you looking to make? If you are talking hundreds, with the same dimensions, it is probably worth buying them in flatpacked, once you've decided on a design.

Good suggestion, never done that before with boxes. JUST GOT TO GET A DESIGN!!!!

 

[pidgeonpost]

An interesting challenge! I quite like the suggestion from @JohnPW - a box within a box - though maybe you would rather the box picked up a little (but not too much) character in transit? How far and how you are shipping it might influence your choice too I guess.
Would appropriate labelling help reduce the risk of damage? We have regularly received plants/shrubs labelled 'LIVE PLANTS - HANDLE WITH CARE'. These have all been in cardboard boxes though.
I'm no historian but I would guess that most such 18C boxes would have been pretty crudely constructed with comparatively few having furniture-quality joints.
I agree with others, plywood would probably be unbeatable for strength and minium weight, but I can understand why you might prefer solid timber as I think I might myself.
I'd be tempted to get hold of a wine or decoupage box off eBay and devise a 'trial run' of some sort. Maybe get a box a bit bigger than you need and use the timber to make your box to the exact dimensions you want?
If you wanted to use hardwood and it wasn't going to break the limit on weight, thin straight-grained oak is very strong and was often used for the sides of drawers on decent furniture. You'd need to reduce its thickness though. Maybe you can visit your local recycling centre or do a bit of skip surfing?
Don't forget that even a thin-walled box can be strengthened enormously by square or triangular inserts at the corners. I'm sure you could fashion a bit of additional bracing half way along the length of the box to beef it up a bit.
If you don't want modern posidrive or slot-headed screws you're stuck with nails I guess. The type of cut upholstery tacks can look a bit 'antique' as the heads are relatively large and a bit irregular - if you can get a suitable length. They'd need to be driven in flat to ensure no sharp edges too.

 

[Thomas]

An interesting challenge! I quite like the suggestion from @JohnPW - a box within a box - though maybe you would rather the box picked up a little (but not too much) character in transit? How far and how you are shipping it might influence your choice too I guess.
Would appropriate labelling help reduce the risk of damage? We have regularly received plants/shrubs labelled 'LIVE PLANTS - HANDLE WITH CARE'. These have all been in cardboard boxes though.
I'm no historian but I would guess that most such 18C boxes would have been pretty crudely constructed with comparatively few having furniture-quality joints.
I agree with others, plywood would probably be unbeatable for strength and minium weight, but I can understand why you might prefer solid timber as I think I might myself.
I'd be tempted to get hold of a wine or decoupage box off eBay and devise a 'trial run' of some sort. Maybe get a box a bit bigger than you need and use the timber to make your box to the exact dimensions you want?
If you wanted to use hardwood and it wasn't going to break the limit on weight, thin straight-grained oak is very strong and was often used for the sides of drawers on decent furniture. You'd need to reduce its thickness though. Maybe you can visit your local recycling centre or do a bit of skip surfing?
Don't forget that even a thin-walled box can be strengthened enormously by square or triangular inserts at the corners. I'm sure you could fashion a bit of additional bracing half way along the length of the box to beef it up a bit.
If you don't want modern posidrive or slot-headed screws you're stuck with nails I guess. The type of cut upholstery tacks can look a bit 'antique' as the heads are relatively large and a bit irregular - if you can get a suitable length. They'd need to be driven in flat to ensure no sharp edges too.

Hi pidgeonpost, thank you for suggestions. Gives me a good bit to consider

 

[Thomas]

For the lightest weight, I'd go for an inner decorative wooden box which looks nice to hold and to present the items, and which does not need to be strong, and an outer cardboard box to provide protection.

A cardboard box can be very strong whilst being relatively lightweight, eg the boxes that hold fruit.

Obviously there will be padding in between the item and inner box, and between the inner and outer boxes.

Johnpw, just reading through your post again. What wood and thickness would you then feel would be adequate?

 

[Thomas]

I would go with laser cut finger jointed ply. It’s probably the only way the cost weight strength equation is going to work. You also have many wood choices in the ply and different grades. You can make them look as upmarket or utility as you like.

Hi Paul, just going over the posts again, may I ask what thickness of ply would you suggest.

Also what finish would you think?

 

[Bob Chapman]

Thomas it does seem to me that you are overthinking this. An attractively decorated cardboard box would probably be fine. On the few occasions that I've received something in a nicely made wooden box I've found it slightly annoying that, with contents removed, this nice box is now useless. I keep them until eventually I throw them away. What a waste! Think of the planet

 

[Thomas]

Thomas it does seem to me that you are overthinking this. An attractively decorated cardboard box would probably be fine. On the few occasions that I've received something in a nicely made wooden box I've found it slightly annoying that, with contents removed, this nice box is now useless. I keep them until eventually I throw them away. What a waste! Think of the planet

Hello Bob,
Well what can I say? I am fearful to admit that financially, speed of turnover, postage costs and a few other aspects you do have a point.

Why then am I pursuing this? I have to ask myself.

Well even in this short thread several people have already said they have received plants in cardboard boxes. So we can conclude that everyone and anyone can do cardboard delivery.

Therefore i too can very easily do this. In fact my neighbour can also, and your neighbour. My value is my botanical background and the associated knowledge. Therefore i am trying to build a value added, authentic story.

So i agree with you to a degree, however i need to be convinced that a product that is on your spectrum will achieve what i am trying to do. So work with me, add some substance that is convincing and that clearly demonstrates inherent value. Otherwise I am just like anyone else who sticks a plant in a cardboard box.

Now I take your suggestion seriously but looking at what is out there I need to be convinced.

My slant has been to get some tangible, achievable tactile wood build suggestions from you guys that know.

Feels a bit like that 'dragons den' thing.

But I have to face the possibility that I am overthinking.

All you others, what do you think, should I reconsider??

So your ideas please...

 

[paulrbarnard]

Hi Paul, just going over the posts again, may I ask what thickness of ply would you suggest.

Also what finish would you think?

3mm would probably be OK but you can increase that if more strength is needed. As you intend to compartmentalise the interior that will add additional strength and can easily be accommodated in the laser cutting process.
You have lots of options for finish ranging from nothing at all, oil or paint. Choice would depend on the ply type you use. If you use a statement wood for the ply then a sympathetic oil finish would look great.

I should add that lasers can also engrave as well as cut. You could even engrave pictures of the plants, logos, writing, for the back ground story etc directly into the box.

 

[Thomas]

3mm would probably be OK but you can increase that if more strength is needed. As you intend to compartmentalise the interior that will add additional strength and can easily be accommodated in the laser cutting process.
You have lots of options for finish ranging from nothing at all, oil or paint. Choice would depend on the ply type you use. If you use a statement wood for the ply then a sympathetic oil finish would look great.

I should add that lasers can also engrave as well as cut. You could even engrave pictures of the plants, logos, writing, for the back ground story etc directly into the box.

Thanks Paul,

May I ask, such a laser cutter, what would I need to spend to get a machine?

Also, statement wood - you mean a selected wood face on the ply, right?

 

[kinverkid]

Tulipwood was a popular (poplar) wood used by the Victorians. I have recently been given three drawers, the chest has long been gone. The fronts are pine, the bottoms are single sheets of thin pine and the sides are poplar, all ends dovetailed. They are 1/4" thick, around the 6mm. A box of the dimensions you've given would be extremely light and, if jointed properly, quite strong.

 

[paulrbarnard]

Thanks Paul,

May I ask, such a laser cutter, what would I need to spend to get a machine?

Also, statement wood - you mean a selected wood face on the ply, right?

You can certainly get your own laser and for thin ply a cheap Chinese laser would be more than adequate. These are in the couple of thousand pounds range. You could go diy and get it down to a few hundred but that’s a project in itself. A laser to handle a full sheet of ply for high volume is a different beast and 10’s thousands in cost. There is also a bit of a learning curve but it’s fun. There are companies that can do the cutting for you giving you all the blanks ready to glue up. You could get a cheap laser engraver for the engraving if you go that route. I added that capability to my 3D printer for 100 pounds.

Yes you are correct. You can get ply in many qualities with different types of wood for the face. This has a significant impact on the cost of course but lets you make the quality statement you are looking for.

 

[Thomas]

Tulipwood was a popular (poplar) wood used by the Victorians. I have recently been given three drawers, the chest has long been gone. The fronts are pine, the bottoms are single sheets of thin pine and the sides are poplar, all ends dovetailed. They are 1/4" thick, around the 6mm. A box of the dimensions you've given would be extremely light and, if jointed properly, quite strong.

Thanks kinverkid!

Finger pointing seems to have come up quite a bit. Would you agree or think otherwise?

 

[Thomas]

You can certainly get your own laser and for thin ply a cheap Chinese laser would be more than adequate. These are in the couple of thousand pounds range. You could go diy and get it down to a few hundred but that’s a project in itself. A laser to handle a full sheet of ply for high volume is a different beast and 10’s thousands in cost. There is also a bit of a learning curve but it’s fun. There are companies that can do the cutting for you giving you all the blanks ready to glue up. You could get a cheap laser engraver for the engraving if you go that route. I added that capability to my 3D printer for 100 pounds.

Yes you are correct. You can get ply in many qualities with different types of wood for the face. This has a significant impact on the cost of course but lets you make the quality statement you are looking for.

Thank you Paul, need to research if there us a large scale company in northern ireland and go see them. That probably is best start.

Does anyone know of any companies?

 

[paulrbarnard]

Thank you Paul, need to research if there us a large scale company in northern ireland and go see them. That probably is best start.

Does anyone know of any companies?

This one might be a starting point to get some ideas Precision Laser Cutting Northern Ireland | Cutting Edge NI

 

[samhay]

OP - another way to look at this is to consider how much the box can cost to produce before your product becomes unaffordable. This will be quite dependent on the number of these you plan to produce/sell. If you are able to buy them in bulk, you can probably get them for similar prices to those wine boxes. A few pounds wholesale. If you are buying or making smaller numbers, it is going to cost you considerably more or take considerable time to produce them. Is you product sufficiently profitable (and expensive) to absorb this cost?