Careful who you let teach you (table saws again)

[D_W]

He's charging £550 for a one day course, in that one day he claims he will teach you all about wood and it's characteristics, how to use hand tools (Japanese and Western), how to use machinery (including Table saw and Planer thicknesser) and you will make a table using what you have learnt! All in one day

I think you would be as well watching a few random Youtube videos as that is where he has obviously learnt his craft.

Just had a quick look at the Peter Sefton Furniture School as a comparison, he charges £720 for a 5 day course, I know which one I would choose.

It might burst some bubbles, but other than learning to sharpen and then confirming that you have tools that are operable, everything is readable for free and most of the free information that's older is better than the newer paid information. Does anyone think paul sellers can give you better information about planing than older texts?

Most of the folks attending classes get kind of stuck doing that when what they really need is time at the bench and some curiosity to get better.

That's not aimed at Mr. Sefton, who I find to be quite pleasant, but rather the constant pop-up of folks who have a lack of success in making and finding clients and immediately turn around and look to social media and beginners.

That said, for later on bits if someone wants to learn to make a specific type of chair or chest in a week and it's their vacation, by all means.

 

[JobandKnock]

It might burst some bubbles, but other than learning to sharpen and then confirming that you have tools that are operable, everything is readable for free and most of the free information that's older is better than the newer paid information.

Maybe for hand tool work, but for wood machining there are far more terrible and downright dangerous examples on YouTube than there are good ones.

One of the difficulties with the Internet is sorting the wheat from the chaff - and there's way more chaff than there is wheat

 

[dannyr]

Friend of mine went to woodworking evening classes at college - well-respected teacher had lifetime's trade experience and all the papers plus teaching and safety quals and no wounds.

Was teaching them safe planer use, distracted, took off the top of his thumb. Recovered and the following year was asked how he lost the end of his thumb, in demonstrating how he did it again.

Don't know what that proves, but take care friends.

 

[JobandKnock]

My missus would say that it's proof that men cannot multitask...

 

[D_W]

Maybe for hand tool work, but for wood machining there are far more terrible and downright dangerous examples on YouTube than there are good ones.

That's not the free material I'm referring to. I don't think youtube is a great place to learn to work wood. I'd bet if you have H&S in the US, you could call them and be directed to materials published for the safe and productive use of power tools. Social media is where the same folks who aren't making it actually woodworking end up - they get their early out of financial need, try to build an audience, and immediately sell as much "at them" as they can.

Or ala sellers, sell some false narrative. Sellers went to teaching, and his accounts of his past work often include or exclude different things - what's missing is how much real work he did that was maker work, and not just craft show work (my mother did the craft show circuit for 40 years and made half a full time salary doing it part time - it's trinket selling more or less).

Someone mentioned yesterday that PS was a peace officer for a while:
https://paulsellers.com/2018/07/a-response/
So, I looked it up. What I didn't see much of was talk about being a police officer - it was full on sales pitch "if you're depressed, come to my classes, I'll teach you a way to be happier and then provide some escapist narrative" (that's my paraphrase of what he's providing). I think legitimate instruction probably can be had by rule without reading anything published after 1993 (which is chosen because it's the first time I ever saw someone download something off of the internet).

The social media world of woodworking is personalities. It doesn't turn out capable workers as far as I can find - not that you can't become one, but you won't become one unless you get involved in something that will make you one (either self driven or something like barnsley or an apprenticeship), and then maybe you'll make a living doing something (as a maker) that isn't what you expect.

That's how my mother ended up on the craft circuit - it paid when she found the fine work market too competitive and hit or miss.

 

[LJM]

He's charging £550 for a one day course, in that one day he claims he will teach you all about wood and it's characteristics, how to use hand tools (Japanese and Western), how to use machinery (including Table saw and Planer thicknesser) and you will make a table using what you have learnt! All in one day

I think you would be as well watching a few random Youtube videos as that is where he has obviously learnt his craft.

Just had a quick look at the Peter Sefton Furniture School as a comparison, he charges £720 for a 5 day course, I know which one I would choose.

Yeah but he wears an artisanal leather apron!

 

[Adam W.]

@Phil Pascoe Not saying I am a brilliant lifelong builder, but that does sound a bit like me. The only "tickets" I have date back to my merchant navy career that ended in 1982. Since then "university of life" and "self-education" all the way. I'm glad I'm nearing the end of my working career though because it's becoming harder and harder without those bits of paper.

I've got loads of qualifications and I still feel like a beginner.

 

[Cabinetman]

Yeah but he wears an artisanal leather apron!

Oh damn, I forgot that, reserved for the seventh level in Hell definitely. Can’t imagine trying to actually work in one of those things.

 

[D_W]

I've got loads of qualifications and I still feel like a beginner.

I'm sure you feel like you're far better at this whole thing than I am - I have mathematics qualifications.

But you and I are both beginners.

This is what a master looks like.

http://www.cybozone.com/fg/wilson1.html#wilson6
You or I would not be able to carve the lute rose at the top of the page let alone design it, and he's "not a carver" (though he carves). He's able to do a half dozen things at the level that he makes musical instruments (including refurbishing machine tools and jewelry die making).

Youtube is an alternate reality. I am a hobbyist, even if i think I can make as good of chisels as are available commercially anywhere (I think that's true).

(I don't know that george has any paper credentials, either).

 

[LJM]

I don’t have a problem with Paul Seller, as others seem to. I don’t give a toss about his patter; from what I’ve seen, he does have skills and knowledge to impart, much of which is freely available. I do have a problem with those who are in effect demonstrating, when they’ve put themselves forward as expert, when they’re demonstrably lacking in knowledge and basic techniques... But just don’t get me started on the new wave of “artisans”!



PS: yes, I know these guys are taking the p**s

 

[Cabinetman]

Loved that! And the circular saw Blades made out of wood on the back wall ha ha

 

[TheTiddles]

Seeing them load that in the back of a car reminds me of the time I got asked to do a customer carry-out at a garden centre for a 25l bag of compost, husband, wife, 3 teenage boys, not one of them could lift it out the trolley into their Mercedes

 

[Adam W.]

I'm sure you feel like you're far better at this whole thing than I am - I have mathematics qualifications.

But you and I are both beginners.

This is what a master looks like.

http://www.cybozone.com/fg/wilson1.html#wilson6
You or I would not be able to carve the lute rose at the top of the page let alone design it, and he's "not a carver" (though he carves). He's able to do a half dozen things at the level that he makes musical instruments (including refurbishing machine tools and jewelry die making).

Youtube is an alternate reality. I am a hobbyist, even if i think I can make as good of chisels as are available commercially anywhere (I think that's true).

(I don't know that george has any paper credentials, either).

 

[Sporky McGuffin]

I don’t have a problem with Paul Seller, as others seem to.

He's fine, apart from the endless sepia-tinted anecdotes, the constant humble-bragging, the long-winded presentation of the bloody obvious as hard-won arcane knowledge, and the tedious dismissiveness of anything modern.

Marginally less odious in text than in video.

 

[artie]

the long-winded presentation of the bloody obvious as hard-won arcane knowledge,

I don't know if there is a name for this.

When I watch a tutorial video, I sit there thinking. Yes obviously, of course, anyone would know that.

But I wouldn't have put it together nearly as quickly without the video.

 

[nosuchhounds]

Ive followed this guy for a while. Shop full of Bridge City and Woodpeckers tools.

I prefer the rebranded name though

 

[Sporky McGuffin]

I don't know if there is a name for this.

When I watch a tutorial video, I sit there thinking. Yes obviously, of course, anyone would know that.

But I wouldn't have put it together nearly as quickly without the video.

The one that springs to mine is how to hand-saw square. The answer is to look at the reflection of the workpiece in the saw blade, and make sure it looks like a continuation of the workpiece. Maybe include two photos - one right, one wrong. It doesn't need a tedious anecdote about some gruff old woodworker with an impenetrable dialect making it hard to learn. One sentence, two photos. Pass on the knowledge, not the history.

It certainly doesn't need a twenty minute video.

 

[Alpha-Dave]

... But just don’t get me started on the new wave of “artisans”!



PS: yes, I know these guys are taking the p**s

Excellent! Very close to reality.

 

[JobandKnock]

All these years I've been living in an alternative reality....

 

[Adam W.]

The one that springs to mine is how to hand-saw square. The answer is to look at the reflection of the workpiece in the saw blade, and make sure it looks like a continuation of the workpiece. Maybe include two photos - one right, one wrong. It doesn't need a tedious anecdote about some gruff old woodworker with an impenetrable dialect making it hard to learn. One sentence, two photos. Pass on the knowledge, not the history.

It certainly doesn't need a twenty minute video.

It's like the how to plane wood twerps, who don't set the iron before they start to pretend that they know how to plane a bit of wood.