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I think the majority got what they wanted so all this bickering is just hot air and a waste of time, what I would like to know is how the hell Cameron got a knighthood and how he got his nose back in our politics, he said whatever the outcome he would stay and sort it out .but instead he had a big sulk and legged it.
Hold on a minute!

Given how much effort David Cameron put into re-negotiating Britain's relationship with the EU, and the fact that he recommended to the electorate that we should remain in the EU, but the electorate (democratically), voted to leave, it's understandable (in my view), that he stood down. He hardly 'legged it' and 'sulked'. (Sunak 'legged' in on D-Day in Normandy last week, and Cameron stood in for him).

I know it's eight years since the referendum, but in the lead up to that from 2013 onwards.

David Cameron did all he could to renegotiate Britain's relationship in Europe, and when it came to a referendum, on 9 June 2015, members of the House of Commons voted by 544 to 53 in favour, endorsing the principle of holding a referendum, with only the Scottish National Party voting against. In contrast to the Labour Party's position prior to the 2015 general election under Miliband, acting Labour leader Harriet Harman committed her party to supporting plans for an EU referendum by 2017.

What was the catalyst that sparked it all off?:

At the European Parliament election in 2014, the UK Independence Party (UKIP) secured more votes and more seats than any other party, the first time a party other than the Conservatives or Labour had topped a nationwide poll in 108 years, leaving the Conservatives in third place.
Why was UKIP so successful?


In 2004, former 'Iron Curtain' impoverished countries know as the 'A8' gained entry to the EU, namely:
  • Czech Republic.
  • Estonia.
  • Hungary.
  • Latvia.
  • Lithuania.
  • Poland.
  • Slovakia.
  • Slovenia.
They - along with all other countries in the EU - had free movement anywhere within the EU, and there were cries that Britain was being 'swamped' and 'overrun' with cheap labour 'stealing' British jobs, overlooking the fact that indolent jobless British welfare benefit claimants didn't want those arduous (well paid) jobs such as picking veg on windswept fields in Lincolnshire, or butchering meat in factories. (Still don't).

Under Ed Miliband's leadership between 2010 and 2015, the Labour Party ruled out an in-out referendum unless and until a further transfer of powers from the UK to the EU were to be proposed. In their manifesto for the 2015 general election, the Liberal Democrats pledged to hold an in-out referendum only in the event of there being a change in the EU treaties. The UK Independence Party (UKIP), the British National Party (BNP), the Green Party, the Democratic Unionist Party and the Respect Party all supported the principle of a referendum.

When the Conservative Party won a majority of seats in the House of Commons at the 2015 general election, Cameron reiterated his party's manifesto commitment to hold an in-out referendum on UK membership of the EU by the end of 2017, but only after "negotiating a new settlement for Britain in the EU".

In early 2014, David Cameron outlined the changes he aimed to bring about in the EU and in the UK's relationship with it. These were: additional immigration controls, especially for citizens of new EU member states; tougher immigration rules for present EU citizens; new powers for national parliaments collectively to veto proposed EU laws; new free-trade agreements and a reduction in bureaucracy for businesses; a lessening of the influence of the European Court of Human Rights on British police and courts; more power for individual member states, and less for the central EU; and abandonment of the EU notion of "ever closer union". He intended to bring these about during a series of negotiations with other EU leaders and then, if re-elected, to announce a referendum.

In November that year, Cameron gave an update on the negotiations and further details of his aims:

The key demands made of the EU were: On economic governance, to recognise officially that Eurozone laws would not necessarily apply to non-Eurozone EU members and the latter would not have to bail out troubled Eurozone economies: On competitiveness, to expand the single market and to set a target for the reduction of bureaucracy for businesses: On sovereignty, for the UK to be legally exempted from "ever closer union" and for national parliaments to be able collectively to veto proposed EU laws; and: On immigration, for EU citizens going to the UK for work to be unable to claim social housing or in-work benefits until they had worked there for four years, and for them to be unable to send child benefit payments overseas.

The outcome of the renegotiations was announced in February 2016. The renegotiated terms were in addition to the United Kingdom's existing opt-outs in the European Union and the UK rebate. The significance of the changes to the EU-UK agreement was contested and speculated upon, with none of the changes considered fundamental, but some considered important to many British people. Some limits to in-work benefits for EU immigrants were agreed, but these would apply on a sliding scale for four years and would be for new immigrants only; before they could be applied, a country would have to get permission from the European Council. Child benefit payments could still be made overseas, but would be linked to the cost of living in the other country.

On sovereignty, the UK was reassured that it would not be required to participate in "ever closer union"; these reassurances were "in line with existing EU law". Cameron's demand to allow national parliaments to veto proposed EU laws was modified to allow national parliaments collectively to object to proposed EU laws, in which case the European Council would reconsider the proposal before itself deciding what to do. On economic governance, anti-discrimination regulations for non-Eurozone members would be reinforced, but they would be unable to veto any legislation.

The final two areas covered were proposals to "exclude from the scope of free movement rights, third country nationals who had no prior lawful residence in a Member State before marrying a Union citizen" and to make it easier for member states to deport EU nationals for public policy or public security reasons. The extent to which the various parts of the agreement would be legally binding is complex; no part of the agreement itself changed EU law, but some parts could be enforceable in international law.

On 20 February 2016, Cameron announced that the UK Government would formally recommend to the British people that the UK should remain a member of a reformed European Union and that the referendum would be held on 23 June, marking the official launch of the campaign.

Research by the Electoral Commission confirmed that its recommended question "was clear and straightforward for voters, and was the most neutral wording from the range of options that were considered and tested":

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?
with the responses to the question (to be marked with a single (X)):

Remain a member of the European Union

Leave the European Union

So the electorate can hardly say it was kept in the dark or hoodwinked.

The impetus which brought about the referendum came from the electorate, the members of the House of Commons voted by 544 to 53 in favour of a referendum, and David Cameron as PM, recommended to the electorate that they should vote to remain. However, the electorate, (those who bothered to vote that is), democratically voted to leave, and are living with the consequences. I think Cameron did his level best, politely, in an even-tempered, level-headed way, with none of the egotistical bumptious bombast and buffoonery of Johnson or Farage, about whom, rather too many of the electorate can't tell the difference between a Court Jester and a Pied Piper.

Source:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum

David.
 
"turning down sales just to punish you? Did they ask which way you voted?" ??

Yes; and Yes.

If you find that ridiculous, perhaos you should get out more . . .
Ok. I will try to get out more. I have a sneaking suspicion that I will still find it ridiculous, though.
On the other hand, the next time some foreign bike part seller asks you which way you voted, maybe you shouldn't tell them.
 
Hold on a minute!

Given how much effort David Cameron put into re-negotiating Britain's relationship with the EU, and the fact that he recommended to the electorate that we should remain in the EU, but the electorate (democratically), voted to leave, it's understandable (in my view), that he stood down. He hardly 'legged it' and 'sulked'. (Sunak 'legged' in on D-Day in Normandy last week, and Cameron stood in for him).

I know it's eight years since the referendum, but in the lead up to that from 2013 onwards.

David Cameron did all he could to renegotiate Britain's relationship in Europe, and when it came to a referendum, on 9 June 2015, members of the House of Commons voted by 544 to 53 in favour, endorsing the principle of holding a referendum, with only the Scottish National Party voting against. In contrast to the Labour Party's position prior to the 2015 general election under Miliband, acting Labour leader Harriet Harman committed her party to supporting plans for an EU referendum by 2017.

What was the catalyst that sparked it all off?:

At the European Parliament election in 2014, the UK Independence Party (UKIP) secured more votes and more seats than any other party, the first time a party other than the Conservatives or Labour had topped a nationwide poll in 108 years, leaving the Conservatives in third place.
Why was UKIP so successful?


In 2004, former 'Iron Curtain' impoverished countries know as the 'A8' gained entry to the EU, namely:
  • Czech Republic.
  • Estonia.
  • Hungary.
  • Latvia.
  • Lithuania.
  • Poland.
  • Slovakia.
  • Slovenia.
They - along with all other countries in the EU - had free movement anywhere within the EU, and there were cries that Britain was being 'swamped' and 'overrun' with cheap labour 'stealing' British jobs, overlooking the fact that indolent jobless British welfare benefit claimants didn't want those arduous (well paid) jobs such as picking veg on windswept fields in Lincolnshire, or butchering meat in factories. (Still don't).

Under Ed Miliband's leadership between 2010 and 2015, the Labour Party ruled out an in-out referendum unless and until a further transfer of powers from the UK to the EU were to be proposed. In their manifesto for the 2015 general election, the Liberal Democrats pledged to hold an in-out referendum only in the event of there being a change in the EU treaties. The UK Independence Party (UKIP), the British National Party (BNP), the Green Party, the Democratic Unionist Party and the Respect Party all supported the principle of a referendum.

When the Conservative Party won a majority of seats in the House of Commons at the 2015 general election, Cameron reiterated his party's manifesto commitment to hold an in-out referendum on UK membership of the EU by the end of 2017, but only after "negotiating a new settlement for Britain in the EU".

In early 2014, David Cameron outlined the changes he aimed to bring about in the EU and in the UK's relationship with it. These were: additional immigration controls, especially for citizens of new EU member states; tougher immigration rules for present EU citizens; new powers for national parliaments collectively to veto proposed EU laws; new free-trade agreements and a reduction in bureaucracy for businesses; a lessening of the influence of the European Court of Human Rights on British police and courts; more power for individual member states, and less for the central EU; and abandonment of the EU notion of "ever closer union". He intended to bring these about during a series of negotiations with other EU leaders and then, if re-elected, to announce a referendum.

In November that year, Cameron gave an update on the negotiations and further details of his aims:

The key demands made of the EU were: On economic governance, to recognise officially that Eurozone laws would not necessarily apply to non-Eurozone EU members and the latter would not have to bail out troubled Eurozone economies: On competitiveness, to expand the single market and to set a target for the reduction of bureaucracy for businesses: On sovereignty, for the UK to be legally exempted from "ever closer union" and for national parliaments to be able collectively to veto proposed EU laws; and: On immigration, for EU citizens going to the UK for work to be unable to claim social housing or in-work benefits until they had worked there for four years, and for them to be unable to send child benefit payments overseas.

The outcome of the renegotiations was announced in February 2016. The renegotiated terms were in addition to the United Kingdom's existing opt-outs in the European Union and the UK rebate. The significance of the changes to the EU-UK agreement was contested and speculated upon, with none of the changes considered fundamental, but some considered important to many British people. Some limits to in-work benefits for EU immigrants were agreed, but these would apply on a sliding scale for four years and would be for new immigrants only; before they could be applied, a country would have to get permission from the European Council. Child benefit payments could still be made overseas, but would be linked to the cost of living in the other country.

On sovereignty, the UK was reassured that it would not be required to participate in "ever closer union"; these reassurances were "in line with existing EU law". Cameron's demand to allow national parliaments to veto proposed EU laws was modified to allow national parliaments collectively to object to proposed EU laws, in which case the European Council would reconsider the proposal before itself deciding what to do. On economic governance, anti-discrimination regulations for non-Eurozone members would be reinforced, but they would be unable to veto any legislation.

The final two areas covered were proposals to "exclude from the scope of free movement rights, third country nationals who had no prior lawful residence in a Member State before marrying a Union citizen" and to make it easier for member states to deport EU nationals for public policy or public security reasons. The extent to which the various parts of the agreement would be legally binding is complex; no part of the agreement itself changed EU law, but some parts could be enforceable in international law.

On 20 February 2016, Cameron announced that the UK Government would formally recommend to the British people that the UK should remain a member of a reformed European Union and that the referendum would be held on 23 June, marking the official launch of the campaign.

Research by the Electoral Commission confirmed that its recommended question "was clear and straightforward for voters, and was the most neutral wording from the range of options that were considered and tested":


with the responses to the question (to be marked with a single (X)):





So the electorate can hardly say it was kept in the dark or hoodwinked.

The impetus which brought about the referendum came from the electorate, the members of the House of Commons voted by 544 to 53 in favour of a referendum, and David Cameron as PM, recommended to the electorate that they should vote to remain. However, the electorate, (those who bothered to vote that is), democratically voted to leave, and are living with the consequences. I think Cameron did his level best, politely, in an even-tempered, level-headed way, with none of the egotistical bumptious bombast and buffoonery of Johnson or Farage, about whom, rather too many of the electorate can't tell the difference between a Court Jester and a Pied Piper.

Source:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum

David.

My goodness, that's a LOT of (well-researched?) info there. BUT, how much of all the above DC "claims and aims" have become reality today?

About the above info I MUST claim to be a "I don't really know" as I wasn't living in UK from late 1984 onwards, haven't ever done so since, and my own view is that despite the abundance of "meeja" I cannot possibly be properly informed about what's really going on inside any country unless I'm actually living there.

Therefore I speak ONLY as an "external observer" when I ask above (about today's UK), QUOTE: how much of all the above DC "claims and aims" have become reality? UNQUOTE.

Still speaking as an "external observer" I believe the answer to that Q is "little or none". BUT IMO the reasons for that answer (if indeed true) are largely immaterial now. To quote that well-known: "It is what it is".

So isn't this whole "argument" immaterial too?
 
There are a range of views about the way the exit was handled. IMHO Cameron should have been far more demanding of the EU and prepared to simply ignore (or kick into the long grass) that which did not meet UK aspirations.

The probability of EU stripping the UK (a major contributor to the EU finances) of membership was very low. He was complacent in the campaign and allowed the BS of Farage and Johnson to dominate the debate. All rather sad as I would rate him as a decent individual at heart.

The EU Parliament and Commission is denigrated when in many respects they are structured far more intelligently than the UK:
  • Council of Ministers sits at the top of the tree, represents member nations, and can agree treaty changes
  • European Parliament represents the people, agrees strategy and holds the Commission to account. They have some legislative powers but this is not their main function.
  • European Commission initiate and implement legislation in line with agreed strategies.
.Why this is better than the UK system:
  • The UK appoints ministers often with no prior experience to run departments sometimes only for a few months or years. The EU Commission are professionals.
  • Each part of the EU structure has a clearly defined role and responsibilities. The UK system evolved over centuries is a complex mix of HoC, HoL and monarchy.
  • We know it desperately needs overhaul, all parties have promised HoL reform at different times, yet noting has been done. A shambles.
As part of a larger entity some independence (sovereignty) was sacrificed. Whether benefits exceed constraints is a matter of opinion. The UK had a choice of being a part of the EU with sufficient mass to play on the world stage, or a significant economic player but definitely not premier league.
 
Blame the awful Angela Merkel - her legacy deteriorates by the day - and her failing to read to room and offer DC something meaningful that might have seen Remain win is just one of her many failings.
 
No they're not. They're elected for 5 year terms just like our MPs.
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/faq/4/how-are-meps-elected
so much misinformation pumped out by right wing press in the UK, somebody online in a political forum posted front pages of daily mail over a 2 year period, every other banner headline was "IMMIGRANTS ARE COMING TO STEAL YOUR STUFF!!" or words to that effect. nigel farage was allowed to appear on question time and spout tripe 37 times, meanwhile a green party mp in the same period had 2 appearances. anyway, im not going to convince brexiteers they were gullible and taken for a ride, and they arent going to convince me it "wasnt done properly" so thats all ill say on the matter, thank god i moved to Ieland 20 years ago and watch the decline from afar, we have a right wing fringe here as well, but thankfully they are a tiny minority..
 
Blame the awful Angela Merkel - her legacy deteriorates by the day - and her failing to read to room and offer DC something meaningful that might have seen Remain win is just one of her many failings.
Agreed.

Though Merkel was born in Hamburg in West Germany in `1954, her family moved to East Germany when she was an infant, so she grew in the German Democratic Republic (GDR), from its formation on 7 October 1949 until its reunification with West Germany on 3 October 1990. Until the revolution in 1989 when the Berlin Wall came down, as a communist state and described itself as a socialist "workers' and peasants' state". She then entered politics in the wake of the Revolution, briefly serving as deputy spokeswoman for the first democratically elected government of East Germany. Following German reunification in 1990, Merkel was elected to the Bundestag for the state of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern (in what was East Germany).

As someone who grew up in a community state under the insidious gaze of the STASI, with little knowledge or experience of living in the free world, it would be hard to think of anyone less well suited to be the chancellor of the reunified Germany. Yet Merkel was frequently referred to as the de facto leader of the European Union (EU) and ‘the most powerful woman in the world’. Beginning in 2016, she was often described as the ‘leader of the free world’. (But then 70 million Americans think that accolade belongs to Trump).

Truth is stranger than fiction.

Source:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Merkel
 
Me thinks I hit a nerve, Cameron did leg it almost the next he said he would sort it out what ever the out come when he did not like the out come he left! . Fact anyway it's all water under the bridge we the people won.
 
Of course MPs and MEPs are both elected - for up to 5 years at a time. The differences are FPTP vs lists.

One major difference is EU law is not drafted by MEPs - it is drafted by the commission and approved by the MEPs whereas UK MPs can draft and submit legislation.

Of course, in this world of lobbying and allegations of MPs being "bought and paid for" it is a separate debate as to which is better system!
 
I wish I could write like cmoops2, what a perfect consept of the EU. Well this is my personell opinion from a wise old man. As a trading setup it was very good but then from unelected mps it got out of hand. We are british and have been for a 1000 years and I see the EU in 10 years being compleatly europe with Tax, Vat, police, army, all being controlled from the EU. Brexit was a good thing if it had been done right but the in fighting in parliment between the remainers and brexiteers meant it was never going to be done correctly, Thus we are half in and half out. That is why we have all the problems. The world is wide open for trade but they are not happy because we are still half in the EU. And as 6year old running down to the shelter during the Sheffield Blitz Please listen to me. Rant over.
Pineapples
 
I really want the new Alpina root MIPs helmet but it's made in Germany and they won't sell to the UK anymore :(
Ah ! There are 2 losers in this (otherwise possible) transaction - you, because the German firm won't sell to a UK customer and the firm's shareholders who appear to have cut off their noses to spite their faces ...
 
Ah ! There are 2 losers in this (otherwise possible) transaction - you, because the German firm won't sell to a UK customer and the firm's shareholders who appear to have cut off their noses to spite their faces ...
I’m sure they, like a lot if other European based businesses, aren’t selling to the UK because it costs too much to process the orders since Brexit. How is that cutting off their noses to spite their faces? It’s good business sense.
 
I’m sure they, like a lot if other European based businesses, aren’t selling to the UK because it costs too much to process the orders since Brexit. How is that cutting off their noses to spite their faces? It’s good business sense.
Similarly, UK businesses now find it harder to trade to/in the EU.
Four companies I've worked for now won't quote for EU work because the bureaucracy adds too much to the overheads to make it profitable. One will only work in the EU IF it's an existing UK client they can't afford to loose.
 
Me thinks I hit a nerve, Cameron did leg it almost the next he said he would sort it out what ever the out come when he did not like the out come he left! . Fact anyway it's all water under the bridge we the people won.
....apart from the folk in Northern Ireland, Scotland and a largish proportion of the rest. A recent article in the F Times.... a few days ago analysed the impact of Brexit on British economy....the verdict....we all lost! ...& will continue to do so....
 
Blame the awful Angela Merkel - her legacy deteriorates by the day - and her failing to read to room and offer DC something meaningful that might have seen Remain win is just one of her many failings.
Not entirely convinced by that argument. Merkel was influential; but any changes would have required agreement from the bloc - so it can't be put solely at her door. Remember that even in the UK the predictions were that Remain would win; so it's not like she failed to predict the outcome when everyone else did.

Also, the vote ended up being far more based on emotion and belief than any sort of rational analysis or understanding of the pros and cons of EU membership. Some minor (even if material) improvement to the UK's deal within the EU would have been unlikely to change the vote of people who were after "sovereignty", or £350 mil a week...
 
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