Buying a **** woodworking plane from Dictum

[MIGNAL]

You might be lucky to get a definitive answer on this Rhossydd. Probably because not many in the UK have bought that particular plane.
I'd be extremely surprised if it was 'hopeless', not many planes are.
I've had a few planes with the Norris adjuster, including one on my Veritas apron Plane. Not my favourite type of adjuster but it's hardly problematic.
What about the Quangsheng version? There's probably more people who have experience of that particular plane, a bit more expensive, though less than the Veritas.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Like them or not, Norris adjusters (or a variation of) are fairly essential for LA planes. The minute amount of forward adjustment results in a fairly large difference in cutting depth, due to the geometry of those planes. In any event, they are not exactly difficult that the average woodworker could not get super precise adjustment with them, which is their point. Their lack of popularity or their demise, had nothing to do with their functionality; they were available on expensive planes and the cheap always seems to prevail. Contending that Norris adjusters are inferior is like saying micrometers are inferior to tape measures! Everything in their place.

I'm still confused about the OP's dislike of the Veritas mouth adjustment. It is positive, precise and extremely well made, I can't see how it could be bettered. The only difference I can see on the **** and other variation is the brass cam adjuster, which works, but adds no precision, since using an arc to move the toe piece linearly is inconsistent. I and many others I know remove them from their block planes, anyway.

Mike.

 

[n0legs]

Buy the plane, if it's no good send it back.
If it's a keeper please review it here. FWIW the colour doesn't bother me either.

 

[Jacob]

Hello,

Like them or not, Norris adjusters (or a variation of) are fairly essential for LA planes. The minute amount of forward adjustment results in a fairly large difference in cutting depth, due to the geometry of those planes. In any event, they are not exactly difficult that the average woodworker could not get super precise adjustment with them, which is their point. Their lack of popularity or their demise, had nothing to do with their functionality; they were available on expensive planes and the cheap always seems to prevail. Contending that Norris adjusters are inferior is like saying micrometers are inferior to tape measures! Everything in their place.......

They simply don't work as well as the Stanley Bailey design. Both to/fro and lateral adjustment is coarser and less positive.
The S/B isn't a cheap alternative it requires more engineering and has been designed to work effectively - it's the S/B which is closer to the micrometer in your comparison - you've got it the wrong way round!
You get to know this if you have a lot of planing to do and have several planes to do it with: speed of sharpening and super precise ease of adjustment become important and the S/B is streets ahead.
The Norris adjuster looks nice and logical and is cheaper engineering, but that's about it.
Retro styling: Emperor's old clothes anyone? :lol:

PS another thing that p'd me off about Norris adjusters is the way they come out with the blade and you have to fiddle about getting it back in place. But if they aren't a tight fit then they are too sloppy - you can't win!

 

[JJ1]

PS another thing that p'd me off about Norris adjusters is the way they come out with the blade and you have to fiddle about getting it back in place. But if they aren't a tight fit then they are too sloppy - you can't win!

Not if you remove the blade carefully they don't. Having used my low angle jack most days for the last two years I would say the adjuster has come out 2-3 times at the most and it's hardly fiddly popping it back in place. Considerably less fiddly in fact than having a screwdriver to hand, removing, reinstalling and resetting a chipreaker, attaching the cap iron, etc. etc. Not to mention adjusting the frog position,etc.
I find the set up couldn't be quicker and less fiddly in fact. The Norris adjuster certainly allows for extremely fine adjustments. Horses for courses I guess.

 

[Jacob]

PS another thing that p'd me off about Norris adjusters is the way they come out with the blade and you have to fiddle about getting it back in place. But if they aren't a tight fit then they are too sloppy - you can't win!

Not if you remove the blade carefully they don't. Having used my low angle jack most days for the last two years I would say the adjuster has come out 2-3 times at the most and it's hardly fiddly popping it back in place. Considerably less fiddly in fact than having a screwdriver to hand, removing, reinstalling and resetting a chipreaker, attaching the cap iron, etc. etc. Not to mention adjusting the frog position,etc.
I find the set up couldn't be quicker and less fiddly in fact. The Norris adjuster certainly allows for extremely fine adjustments. Horses for courses I guess.

It's a bit of a myth - in fact "fine" adjustment on a Norris is not as fine as a Stanley/Bailey. I was surprised too when I did a side by side comparison - I thought there must be some point in having a Norris adjuster but no there isn't - they are worse in every respect.

On mine (LV 4) the adjuster came out every time.

I've got stay-set cap irons on most of my S/B planes and they are the one added extra worth having IMHO. I never adjust frog position. Also thanks to the thinner blade the sharpening downtime is very small compared to many of the new ones. Which is why they were such a success, in their day, and still my favourite if I actually have to do a lot of planing.
I just did a load of long 4x4" newel posts, face and edge (too cumbersome for the planer but OK through the PT after hand flattening) so I put them all to the test! Basically down to a Record 5 1/2 for jacking down, a 22" woody for an arris and a Stanley 7 for straightening/smoothing.
The Stanley has an old Stanley laminated blade and after a lot of use I get the feeling that it's the best of them all. It's very subjective you can't be sure.

 

[iNewbie]

Has anyone here actually bought a **** woodworking plane from Dictum ?
eg https://www.dictum.com/en/tools/woodwor ... =szmoX6-D_

Currenly out of stock This UK company has that same plane listed on their site. Probably more expensive than ****'s price though.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Like them or not, Norris adjusters (or a variation of) are fairly essential for LA planes.

Not so. The Lie Nielsen #164 low-angle smoothing plane uses a Bailey-style adjuster. It works really well and, in my experience, far better than the Norris-style adjusters used in the Veritas low-angle planes.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Jacob]

Like them or not, Norris adjusters (or a variation of) are fairly essential for LA planes.

Not so. The Lie Nielsen #164 low-angle smoothing plane uses a Bailey-style adjuster. It works really well and, in my experience, far better than the Norris-style adjusters used in the Veritas low-angle planes.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

Right there yer go then! I didn't know that. Am I right in thinking that other LN low angle planes with norris style adjusters don't have lateral adjustment via the lever, or did I imagine it?

 

[woodbrains]

Like them or not, Norris adjusters (or a variation of) are fairly essential for LA planes.

Not so. The Lie Nielsen #164 low-angle smoothing plane uses a Bailey-style adjuster. It works really well and, in my experience, far better than the Norris-style adjusters used in the Veritas low-angle planes.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

Hello,

The exception that proves the rule, since it is the only one and done so because the rear handle would foul a Norris. Their other LA planes have Norris as well as LV and almost any LA block plane having a variation on the Norris theme. I'm never arguing the Bailey adjuster is bad, just different. Not a single argument against the Norris adjuster is either true or actually relavant. Once the lateral adjustment has been made, once only, it is set until next sharpening. Not hard to do and unlike Baileys, will not be knocked out again, with that silly lever back there. Depth adjustment on the fly, never done it and can't be done on hammer adjustable woodies anyhow, not something to miss not having. I definitely don't miss 2 turns of backlash on sloppy Baileys either!

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

.......Not a single argument against the Norris adjuster is either true or actually relavant. Once the lateral adjustment has been made, once only, it is set until next sharpening......

Hmm that says a lot. :roll: Anybody doing any serious planing knows that the lateral adjuster is immensely useful - if it works!

Clever that LN 164 - the adjuster sits on top instead of underneath. But does it adjust laterally?
https://www.lie-nielsen.com/product/low ... ing-plane-

 

[Paul Chapman]

Clever that LN 164 - the adjuster sits on top instead of underneath. But does it adjust laterally?

No - I use a small hammer for lateral adjustment.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[JohnCee]

Like them or not, Norris adjusters (or a variation of) are fairly essential for LA planes.

Not so. The Lie Nielsen #164 low-angle smoothing plane uses a Bailey-style adjuster. It works really well and, in my experience, far better than the Norris-style adjusters used in the Veritas low-angle planes.



Paul

Pain in the arse when you want to use the plane on a shooting board, though.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Like them or not, Norris adjusters (or a variation of) are fairly essential for LA planes.

Not so. The Lie Nielsen #164 low-angle smoothing plane uses a Bailey-style adjuster. It works really well and, in my experience, far better than the Norris-style adjusters used in the Veritas low-angle planes.



Paul

Pain in the buttocks when you want to use the plane on a shooting board, though.

Not if you have one of these (which also has a Bailey-style adjuster)



Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Andy Kev.]

......I wouldn't regard the mouth adjuster as crude either. It's as smooth as silk and can be fully opened or closed to within a fraction of the plane iron with a simple twist of the front knob. It doesn't get much easier and less crude than that IMO.
It's an outstanding plane and one I certainly wouldn't want to be without.......

I dumped mine on Ebay I couldn't see the point having all that money locked up in one very ordinary plane. But I agree - the mouth adjuster was very good, and better than the alternatives (Stanley mouth adjuster or bedrock design).
However the LV and the **** both have the Norris lateral adjuster, which is hopeless, which is why it went out of fashion in the first place. You need a little hammer for fine adjustment. They both really are retro and rather stupid designs.

I've tried a few of these heavy expensive retro design planes and am not impressed. It's always a pleasure to get back to the old Stanley/Bailey variations.

If I wanted to spend time fiddling with novelty planes I'd do it with old woodies - they are at least very cheap!

Have you had the chance to see this clip where the chap compares and contrasts BU vs BD planes?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnrOtbnUaVg

In essence he says that he thinks BU planes, being mechanically simpler, are great for beginners but he finds that with time he has moved more and more to BD while saving the BU for certain situations.

When I bought my first plane I went for BU mainly because by looking at the thing it was crystal clear how it worked. Last week I took delivery of a BD jack plane and I've still not achieved competence with it although that is obviously down to my need to acquire the necessary skills. I can't see that tapping the blade with a little hammer to adjust a BU plane is a problem (I do it when I need to). I've also found that by moving the mouth close towards the blade, I can see very quickly and accurately whether it is straight or not.

It's fairly obvious from all the accounts on here that both systems work equally well, the big advantage of BU being mechanical simplicity. I wonder what the key advantage for BD is?

 

[Jacob]

......
It's fairly obvious from all the accounts on here that both systems work equally well, the big advantage of BU being mechanical simplicity. I wonder what the key advantage for BD is?

If you are actually doing a lot of planing, speed and ease of sharpening the thin blade becomes very important. I think this is probably the single main reason for the rise of the Stanley/Bailey design.
The next main reason is ease of adjustment - the S/B is best and most precise by far, as compared to Norris adjusters or woodies.

LN LV keep reintroducing things from the back catalogue - then it's just a matter of time before we discover why they were in the back catalogue in the first place (i.e. they were not good enough - deficient in one way or another). :roll:

PS that video is 27 minutes long! That's about 25 minutes too long!! Didn't watch it.

 

[Andy Kev.]

......
It's fairly obvious from all the accounts on here that both systems work equally well, the big advantage of BU being mechanical simplicity. I wonder what the key advantage for BD is?

If you are actually doing a lot of planing, speed and ease of sharpening the thin blade becomes very important. I think this is probably the single main reason for the rise of the Stanley/Bailey design.
The next main reason is ease of adjustment - the S/B is best and most precise by far, as compared to Norris adjusters or woodies.

LN LV keep reintroducing things from the back catalogue - then it's just a matter of time before we discover why they were in the back catalogue in the first place (i.e. they were not good enough - deficient in one way or another). :roll:

PS that video is 27 minutes long! That's about 25 minutes too long!! Didn't watch it.

You're a professional so I respect that anything which offers more speed/efficiency is to be siezed upon. However, is it not so that most of the time sharpening is confined to touching up the secondary bevel? No difference there but you're right that it will take a couple of minutes longer on a BU when doing the primary bevel. Time's not an issue for me as an amateur.

I have to say that I've yet to come across a deficiency in my three LV BU planes (Jack, Jointer and BU Smoother).

The video could actually run at about 8 mins. He needs to sort out some script cards in advance! However, you'd probably find time to watch it while you were having a brew. He does make a lot of interesting points.

 

[Corneel]

When you have trouble with tearout, you need a higher cutting angle in a bevel up plane, while you can set the chipbreaker closer to the edge in a BD one. The first strategy causes more resistance (plane is harder to push) and it tends to push the edge out of the cut instead of pulling it into the wood, like a 45 degree plane does. The capriron also helps, when it is not quite close enough to the edge, to prevent the depth of tearout, while a single iron plane is more all or nothing, it either leaves a smooth surface or it rips out chunks.

These are factors not very obvious on first sight, but could be one of the explanations why double iron plaes took over the market in the 19th century.

 

[Jacob]

....
I have to say that I've yet to come across a deficiency in my three LV BU planes (Jack, Jointer and BU Smoother).

......

You won't, until the going gets tough :shock:
Then when push comes to shove they are all outa the window except an oldish Record 5 1/2 with a thin but laminated blade. The plane of planes; nonpareil.

 

[n0legs]

Rhossydd, have you ordered the plane yet :?:

Another Jacob against the world topic :roll: