British Woodworking - Issue No.5

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OPJ":3n5yn67y said:
I'm disappointed to see that regular members are now arguing amongst themselves over this! Lataxe is gone (or, reading over this right now, laughing to himself...). We all have our own opinions and know where each one of us stands. Let's leave it at that, please!!

Where were we... Only one month until the next issue - we're halfway there! :D

Point taken Ollie. You are right. Once more, I am done with it.

(I just glued up the 'walnut thingies' by the way. Finished for today; one of the joys of retirement!)


Thanks my friend and my Regards.

John :)
 
OPJ":2zhyryad said:
I'm disappointed to see that regular members are now arguing amongst themselves over this!

What an outrageous statement. That's highly insulting to the argumentative among us. Pistols at dawn are the only way to restore my oh err I mean their honour.
 
I feel also that this thread has had a good run, all sorts of issues having been raised, some valid and others clearly ludicrous (IMO) Suffice to say that I've been won over to BW and will continue to subscribe (but I'll still take F&C as well :) )...all power then to Nick's inky fingers :D - Rob
 
I have been reading the thread but not laughing at anyone, not even the huffers and puffers. It was a relief to see Mr Gibbs is "thick skinned" and therefore, I hope, content that my original posts have at least caused a vigorous discussion of his magazine. No such thing as bad publicity, eh. :)

My intent was to be controversial, although I had hoped it would lead to criticisms and defence of the magazine style, content and clarification of its raison d'etre rather than some of the laddish exchanges that have ocurred (and I was guilty of a couple too - birdbox remarks, for example - so apologies for those at least).

I don't feel a need to apologise to you, Mr Gibbs. I have been harsh but I don't mind in the least if you are harsh back. In my experience little is actually achieved in discussions by being nicey-nice and offering nothing worse than faint praise. Perhaps you might consider again your belief that criticism of the magazine is some how personal to you? If that were the case, how is anyone ever going to question the content without you taking offense?

I don't question your dedication, hard work or abilities. I question the style and content of the magazine and assume that (were you persuaded) your abilities would easily allow you to change that conduct and style to something else. Neither do I expect you to change it just because I say so. I merely make suggestions as to why I think you should (my opinion) with reasons why I think the current content is inadequate and suggestions about what you could do instead. You are perfectly free to ignore everything I suggest without that somehow making you a bad person, in my eyes or anyone else's.

In short, why not be be professional about criticism? I worked for many years in an environment where long-researched and sweated-over technical or other written productions were vigorously and heavily criticised in every way you can imagine. It would have been very petty of me to take such criticism personally. After the heavy duty arguments they were rewritten and they were always better for it. In that workplace, which was not unlike yours in intent (education in a palatable even entertaining form) the idea was to test and refine a document until it was fit for purpose, not for people to pat me on the back and admire how hard I'd worked.

This is how I look at a magazine you are trying to sell me. It has to be of use to me or get criticised by me. if the criticism falls on deaf ears, so be it. I don't mind you selling to a different market and you shouldn't mind me telling you why I'm not in that market, especially if you would like me to change my mind and buy it. (I presume you do want to sell to as wide a readership as you can).

This post is already boring and long enough so I'll try again to state my fundamental criticisms now:

1) You seem to have made an assumption that your market is hobbyists, including beginners but that such people only require very basic information, very easy challenges-to-make and inexpensive tools. I think that is a false assumption (bordering on insulting when you opine that a beginner should expect to make do with some cheap tool or other to construct sticks for balls of string or book jackets of the not-illustrated variety). This assumption will limit your market, more to the point.

2) The magazine style seems more concerned to sell personalities than it is to provide good quality how-to or other technical information. Articles discussing personalities certainly have their place (eg your innovators article) but shouldn't overwhelm technical articles to the point where the how-to is obscure, incomplete and inter-twined with spurious personal opinions, histories and "feelings about stuff".

I'd like you to attempt a refutation or at least state in clear terms what your editorial policy is, what the magazines goals are and the fundamental types of content you think are appropriate to them - the what and the why.

Of course, what I would like is neither here not there, so you can simply ignore me if you wish and plough your own furrow. There seem to be plenty of folk on this forum who are content with the magazine as-is. I don't mind in the least; but then my money stays in my pocket and I suspect that there will be a lot more like me - many others who might otherwise be your customer.

Lataxe, no couch potato (magazine-reading variety).
 
All this seems a bit harsh for such a well meaning fellow like Nick. Such comment is more suitable for PM.

Judge Nick for yourself at shows like the Classic Hand tools event where he will be in attendance.

Mods?

Martin
 
I for one would like to welcome Lataxe to the forum.

His first post has created a storm, has been deliberately provocative and has exposed the "huffers and puffers" of this forum.

I too work in an environment of rigorous and brutal comment and critique made professionally and with feedback including the evidence needed to substantiate and prove the feedback.

I am glad to see that a few have risen to this challenge to us and am sorry to see that so many have responded by assuming personal insult.

Have I enjoyed this thread. Yes.
Do I want to see a more off balance, off comfortable path opinion. Yes.

Thanks and regards Lataxe

Alan
 
Lataxe,

If only you had made your earlier posts in the same respectful style you made that one.

Thanks for responding.
 
beech1948":2tn51xw6 said:
I for one would like to welcome Lataxe to the forum.
He is not a new member, he joined in 2006.
beech1948":2tn51xw6 said:
His first post has created a storm, has been deliberately provocative and has exposed the "huffers and puffers" of this forum.
Why the need to provoke? Why not simply state an opinion, without insults? If by' huffers and puffers' you mean those that felt insulted then they had every right to say so.
beech1948":2tn51xw6 said:
I too work in an environment of rigorous and brutal comment and critique made professionally and with feedback including the evidence needed to substantiate and prove the feedback.
We are not in 'a professional environment' though are we? We are on a, for the most part, friendly and good natured forum. So the above has no relevance.
beech1948":2tn51xw6 said:
I am glad to see that a few have risen to this challenge to us and am sorry to see that so many have responded by assuming personal insult.
Again, why should there be a need to 'challenge' anyone? Sounds rather confrontational to me.
I don't think any insult needed to be 'assumed', it was quite evident from my reading of the posts.
beech1948":2tn51xw6 said:
Have I enjoyed this thread. Yes.
Do I want to see a more off balance, off comfortable path opinion. Yes.
As would I, without the 'abrasive' tone some people seem to think is OK on a forum such as this; It isn't, this isn't usenet.
beech1948":2tn51xw6 said:
Thanks and regards Lataxe

Alan
 
Steve,

Lataxe is new to me. I don't really care at all about the chronological exactitude of when s/he joined. Just a "Welcome" pull up a chair, have a chat.

You mentioned professionalism. I am always in a professional mind set, even in the pub, my workshop and my job and laughing and talking to mates. Its who I am. My training has made the human part of me concerned to always be seen as a pro. Are you saying that you are a pro sometimes and much less than that at other times. Much of the comment here is upto professional standards. Certainly much of the work presented is that good. I treat each of you as professionals and I expect the same back. I expect honesty, integrity, trust and clarity from you all.

You comment above provocation and abrasiveness. Its all in the mind of the beholder as to what degree to accept. Your and my tolerance for this is obviously different. Thats neither good nor bad it just is.

As to my comment about assumption of insult. I think what I was trying to convey is that a number of people who I believe were not insulted drew out an insult to them by personalising something which was not aimed at them at all. If we personalise in that way we would be insulted by everything challenging said in the world.

So you ended by mentioning "usenet" in what I interpreted as a disparaging way and I agree that to decsend to that level would be a blow to us all. But should I now feel insulted that you equate my post to "usenet". I do not but I could take imagined umbrage about that if I was to be disposed in that direction. Its easy to do when you take text messages as a literal personal criticism.

A little grit in the oiled commentary of the forum may add some fun, some new knowledge, spark some more interest, add to the number of REGULAR posters, make life more sparkling...or not as you see fit.

My grandad once said to me that a craftsman may work alone producing a masterpiece, be technically challenged, trialled and tested by the technique but only he knew the weight of effort and challenge he used to create his masterpiece and all he needed was a client able to see and understand that effort and skill to feel vindicated or not.

So all in all I am going back to the woodwork. Have fun, love life, live long.

regards
Alan
 
Lataxe":3hl7htif said:
In short, why not be be professional about criticism?

Wow. I find that startling. I have gone out of my way throughout this thread to say that I have been listening to comments from all sides. I have tried time and again to explain the editorial policy of British Woodworking. I don't think I could have been much clearer than what I said a few pages ago. I even supported Mr Henderson when he commented that you should not have been attacked.

I've edited enough magazines to know that we must continually make British Woodworking better. I also know that British woodworking magazines need as many imaginative and talented voices as possible, or they will be subsumed by imports from abroad. I am happy with the direction the magazine is taking, overwhelmed by the feedback and support, and hope one day we can meet, Lataxe, so that I can explain the rationale and economics in more detail.

Cheers

Nick
 
beech1948":1vpvmtfp said:
Steve,

Lataxe is new to me. I don't really care at all about the chronological exactitude of when s/he joined. Just a "Welcome" pull up a chair, have a chat.
Hi Alan
The point I was making was that he/she is not new to this forum, in fact joined quite some time ago and thus, ought to have an idea of the general good nature of this forum how it 'runs' as it were. I should have said that in my last post so, my error.
beech1948":1vpvmtfp said:
You mentioned professionalism. I am always in a professional mind set, even in the pub, my workshop and my job and laughing and talking to mates. Its who I am. My training has made the human part of me concerned to always be seen as a pro. Are you saying that you are a pro sometimes and much less than that at other times.
Most definitely yes. When working I give 100%, I earn every penny, i've been known often to work for many hours unpaid so that a job was done properly.
Away from work I am quite different in many respects. I think it's called 'chillin out' but don't quote me on that.
beech1948":1vpvmtfp said:
Much of the comment here is upto professional standards. Certainly much of the work presented is that good. I treat each of you as professionals and I expect the same back. I expect honesty, integrity, trust and clarity from you all.
To fulfill all the above can be a tall order, clarity especially, since we are in a virtual place( here) and meaning is open to interpretation. I too prefer honesty but, it isn't so cut and dried. If I see a piece of work I like then I might well say so. I might not if many have already, it gets a bit tedious to read if there is pages of it. If I see a piece I don't like then I generally keep quiet about it. Why should I hurt someones feelings just because I don't like what they have made?
beech1948":1vpvmtfp said:
<snipped>

So you ended by mentioning "usenet" in what I interpreted as a disparaging way .....
I did not mean it that way and I apologise if that was the impression I gave. I merely meant that this is a somewhat more light hearted place than many discussion boards.
beech1948":1vpvmtfp said:
<snipped>

So all in all I am going back to the woodwork.
Me too, after I've had a bit of a kip that is. It's been a long day and a bit. :D
 
Mr G,

You say, "I have gone out of my way throughout this thread to say that I have been listening to comments from all sides. I have tried time and again to explain the editorial policy of British Woodworking. I don't think I could have been much clearer than what I said a few pages ago".

Sadly I have to disagree with you again.

You have not "gone out your way"; it is your job to make the magazine and persuade us to buy it. Perhaps you disagree with that too, although you seem to have been gathering some customers here alright, eh? :)

You have offered a rather high-level description of a couple of things you are aiming for in the magazine. That hardly counts as "explaining....time and time again". It was once and there wasn't a lot of explanation. The explanation seems to be largely, "watch this space".

***

But I am probably flogging a dead horse here. I really will stop it now and hope that you have been shoved out your comfort zone for a bit and might think a bit more about possibilities for the magazine outside of it's currently rather mediocre aims. I look forward to a future issue that
will encourage me to praise you to the skies rather than nibble at your ankle.

Lataxe
 
Lataxe":326iftuh said:
1) You seem to have made an assumption that your market is hobbyists, including beginners but that such people only require very basic information, very easy challenges-to-make and inexpensive tools. I think that is a false assumption (bordering on insulting when you opine that a beginner should expect to make do with some cheap tool or other to construct sticks for balls of string or book jackets of the not-illustrated variety). This assumption will limit your market, more to the point.

I've never spoken to Nick personally about his precise goals and targets for any of his previous or current magazines but, the way I see it, Nick is not only trying to sell and magazine, he's also trying to encourage and introduce people to the Wonderful World of Woodwork.

When I started back at college in September (Cabinet Making), I was astonished by the lack of confidence in the other nine members of my class (I'd previously done Carpenty & Joinery :wink: ). In order for people with no previous experience to build on their skills and find confidence, they have to start off working slowly without too much complication. I think that's what Nick's trying to do with these "easy" projects - to show people that it's really not that difficult and give them the confidence to simply "have a go".

I still consider myself relatively new to all this, after two college courses. I also remember the first time I read F&C and my jaw hit the floor! :D

Lataxe":326iftuh said:
2) The magazine style seems more concerned to sell personalities than it is to provide good quality how-to or other technical information. Articles discussing personalities certainly have their place (eg your innovators article) but shouldn't overwhelm technical articles to the point where the how-to is obscure, incomplete and inter-twined with spurious personal opinions, histories and "feelings about stuff".

For a magazine at this level, with its "Target Audience" taken in to consideration, I've personally found that having a "friendly" written style to any article makes you feel more at home and at ease. It's not like reading from a dry textbook; "I made this; it's made from Ash; I went through the same old machining processes you've already read about hundreds of times, before I slapped on some varnish, etc."... I'll be honest and say that some of the pieces Steve has made in the past don't suit my personal tastes, but I do enjoy reading what he has to say.

Another point I feel worth mentioning is that it's more than likely the majority of people feel quite "lonely" in their hobby - how many other woodworkers do you know in your area? I've worked with carpenters and bench joiners but, when 5 o'clock comes, they down their tools and that's it. It's nice to know and feel that you're not the only person in the world who spends a large portion of their spare time fiddling with bits of wood - and I guess that's also why we turn to the internet, with sites like this. :? :wink:

:D
 
OPJ wrote:
For a magazine at this level, with its "Target Audience" taken in to consideration, I've personally found that having a "friendly" written style to any article makes you feel more at home and at ease. It's not like reading from a dry textbook; "I made this; it's made from Ash; I went through the same old machining processes you've already read about hundreds of times, before I slapped on some varnish, etc."... I'll be honest and say that some of the pieces Steve has made in the past don't suit my personal tastes, but I do enjoy reading what he has to say.
In conversation with Nick personally at length at Yandles the other week, I have to agree with OPJ that this 'friendly' approach is the one that Nick is encouraging. The dry-as-dust, 'this is how I did it' how-to angle that a certain poster seems bent on encouraging is not...and I'll repeat that... not what Nick is aiming for. The 'how-to' is important for sure but it should be wrapped up in such a way that there is a story to be told that's entertaining at a personal level - Rob
 
Lataxe":28iduujk said:
But I am probably flogging a dead horse here. I really will stop it now and hope that you have been shoved out your comfort zone for a bit and might think a bit more about possibilities for the magazine outside of it's currently rather mediocre aims. Lataxe

What 'comfort zone'? I don't think my family see it that way. That I have only 'mediocre aims' is beyond belief. You obviously have no idea about publishing. Olly is exactly right: we are trying to produce a magazine that is technical on all levels, but also approachable and written in a journalistic style that makes it more readable than most woodworking magazines. My hunch is that many woodworking magazines are skimmed rather than read in depth, and we are trying to produce a magazine that is more readable. The vast majority of responses we've had confirm that readers are picking up on that, and find much more to read in British Woodworking than in most woodworking magazines.

But we can't satisfy everyone. If you email me your postal address I will send you a sample copy of the next issue. That offer is open to anyone who hasn't seen the magazine before.

Nick
 
Can I smell Trolls? Perhaps it's best not to feed them.:)

But seriously, it seems to matter not a jot, to Latexe, what anyone, mainly Nick Gibbs, says. His mind is set, in stone it would seem, and nowt is gonna change it. I, for one, shall rise no more to the bait.
 
I don't think so, Steve. I think that Latex just has a huge ego, and doesn't see why he shouldn't give everyone the benefit of his superior opinion - ad nauseam. Because if it's HIS opinion we must be interested in it.

As someone (might have been you or me some time back) said - if you don't like it, don't buy it...

Nick - for me, keep up the good work.
 
Smudger":1fqyzmat said:
I don't think so, Steve. I think that Latex just has a huge ego, and doesn't see why he shouldn't give everyone the benefit of his superior opinion - ad nauseam. Because if it's HIS opinion we must be interested in it.

As someone (might have been you or me some time back) said - if you don't like it, don't buy it...

Nick - for me, keep up the good work.
OK Smudger I may be wrong with the troll bit but, still think nothing will change his view, as you say ego and all that.
Well I've had enough of this nonsense, it aint what I come here for.
 
I presume that in the last two posts in which Lataxe's name was spelled incorrectly, that that mis-spelling was deliberate (and therefore childish)? Or perhaps a touch of dyslexia?
 
mister henderson":2fpdn4vq said:
I presume that in the last two posts in which Lataxe's name was spelled incorrectly, that that mis-spelling was deliberate (and therefore childish)? Or perhaps a touch of dyslexia?

A few people have been accidentely misspelling it 'Latexe' throughout the entire thread. Also I can't quite figure why you would think 'Latexe' and 'Latex' would be an insult and there fore childish. I am sure Steve and **** did not mean to offend, and they were accidental misspellings. Besides, I sure they can come up with better ones than that. :D

Strange how you couldn't see how insulting Lataxe was to Steve, but you can see offence here, where there isn't any. :?:
 
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