Bringing goods from the EU

[Richard_C]

Responding to a few things here.

What would the Germans think about supporting poorer nations? When the wall came down - 1989 - Germany introduced a reunification tax, I think it was about 2% on tax rates for 10 years, with wide public support because people could see the moral and economic argument for investing. All of the former Eastern Bloc countries have had EU support and increasingly are growing their economies. The Polish workers who went to other EU countries 10 years ago can now stay at home and enjoy a reasonable standard of living. Migration control is being achieved not by blocking migration but by making it unnecessary. Its a long term project, its working.

European democracy does work. To get things done you need agreement from 3 bodies, the Commission who make it happen, the Parliament who approve and/or make the laws (and sometimes surprise the Commission) and the Council which has representatives of every members state. We elect the MEP s and indirectly elect our Government which sends representatives to Council. It is big and sometimes cumbersome and needs consensus to work, which tends to weed out madness. I vote for an MP, I don't vote for a Prime Minister or any other Minister. I find it hard to see a Democratic deficit in the EU. I am 1/250th of the electorate for my Parish Council, they might be interested in what I think, then up through the layers to District and County Council, Parliament and finally 500 million EU voters, at leach step my views count less and I'm less likely to get what I want but it is still democratic. Democracy, the worst system we have until you look at all the others.

Yes there was and still is a level of corruption in the EU. Remember T Dan Smith and Poulson? Jonathan Aitken? It's everywhere, a good organisation recognises it and deals with it one bite at time knowing that it is ever present. Its not a reason to leave an organisation.

Now to 'mission creep' of the EU. If you want real open borders and a single market you have to have rules on consumer protection, safety standards, origin and so on or you open up to cheap unprincipled manufacturers. Then you have to think about other rules, like not making products in government run labour camps housing political prisoners, or giving your citizens the right to access a common legal system for commercial disputes (ECJ) or the ECHR to enforce their personal rights. So yes, you get more and more common rules. I bet though that the disabled children chained in filthy conditions in Ceaucescus Romania aren't complaining about EU interference, and I believe the EU has a moral duty to all of its citizens. It has quietly achieved more in the last 25 years than the UK alone ever could. Negotiators complained of the EU being 'idealistic' - of course it was, the EU is based on ideology, one that we helped form. Without ideology its just a great big supermarket.

Anyway, back to practicalities. If you want to buy anything from the EU and be sure what customs duty will be applied, you can look here for help on the relevant codes:

www.gov.uk/guidance/finding-commodity-codes-for-imports-or-exports

As this is a UK Workshop forum, have a look at wood: Here's a tiny extract

Roughly trimmed wood which is used for making walking-sticks, umbrellas, tool handles and similar products is not classified under heading code 4403. Instead it’s classified under heading code 4404

Don't confuse that with 4403 which includes among many other things wood to make smoking pipes. I guess if you want to make your walking stick and a pipe out of the same piece you need a mixed consignment declaration


And here for the duty for that code:

www.gov.uk/trade-tariff

Which handily for this is just the 20% VAT. As is most wood from the EU, but you still have to find the code and declare it.

Easy, don't forget to add on the carrier's handling charge.


Grrrrrr

 

[Richard_C]

And when it's a bit more advanced she would have the option of paying for the nicer room ahead of the queues, or waiting longer getting a less nice one cheaper.

And soon after be asked to show a credit card before the Ambulance will pick you up after you break your leg in the street.

 

[Nigel Burden]

when the socialist revolution happens matey you'll be the first up against the wall. Jacob with his wellies and bobble hat on, with pitchfork in hand,

So Jacob is just an alias? He's really Citizen Smith.

 

[Jacob]

So Jacob is just an alias? He's really Citizen Smith.

Close. Actually I am Spartacus (but don't tell anybody yet or they'll all want to be Spartacus)

 

[doctor Bob]

So Jacob is just an alias? He's really Citizen Smith.

Just a guess, he is a man of many guises.

 

[Jacob]

Would you buy a fitted kitchen from this chap?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Thats OK then if they knew what they were voting for.

Out of the fire, back into the frying pan.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Without ideology its just a great big supermarket.

Which is what the UK voted to stay in, and if it were we would undoubtedly have voted to stay in it. The referendum should have been held before Maastricht. We know why it wasn't, of course - the government would have had to have given out truthful information and thus knew a referendum would have come up with the wrong answer.

 

[sploo]

Here's my experience of NHS vs Private Healthcare:...

Very sorry to hear of the loss of your wife.

Your experiences are pretty much spot on as examples of the NHS.

Consultants are permitted to do a degree of private work, but the private hospitals (at least in the UK) don't tend to deal with really serious surgeries (or hold much in the way of the really expensive kit such as MRI scanners). Obviously that'll be different in countries where private healthcare is the norm.

Your daughter's experience rings true too; private (at least in the UK) is great... until something goes seriously wrong... at which point you'll be pointed at an NHS hospital. Unsurprisingly, NHS hospitals take a pretty dim view of getting a patient who needs treatment because of a problem in a private hospital, but it does happen.

 

[sploo]

And soon after be asked to show a credit card before the Ambulance will pick you up after you break your leg in the street.

Based on my wife's experience of working as a doctor in the US, that is chillingly closer to the truth than many in the UK would probably imagine.

 

[Jacob]

Very sorry to hear of the loss of your wife.

Your experiences are pretty much spot on as examples of the NHS.

Consultants are permitted to do a degree of private work, but the private hospitals (at least in the UK) don't tend to deal with really serious surgeries (or hold much in the way of the really expensive kit such as MRI scanners). Obviously that'll be different in countries where private healthcare is the norm.

Your daughter's experience rings true too; private (at least in the UK) is great... until something goes seriously wrong... at which point you'll be pointed at an NHS hospital. Unsurprisingly, NHS hospitals take a pretty dim view of getting a patient who needs treatment because of a problem in a private hospital, but it does happen.

Private hosps have to cherry pick because they are usually small. My recent cataract op was via NHS but at a private hosp which also does a number of other routines such as hip replacements. Nothing wrong with specialising of course but the NHS gets left with the pricier stuff. A bit like private schools which often don't have the facilities and send their kids off to state schools with 6th forms

 

[Fergie 307]

It is interesting how you think rich countries helping out poorer countries as a bad idea.

I think you will find I did not say, or even suggest any such thing, not do I think it. I merely suggest, based on what I have been told by German friends, that there is a perception amongst many Germans that they are being expected to shoulder an unfairly large part of the cost of helping out their poorer neighbours. Most saw 're unification of Germany as an absolute duty, and were more than willing to pay for it. This was a completely issue that had nothing to do with the EU.

 

[Fergie 307]

The EU has serious failings and I would agree, I don't like the direction of travel either.

Although I don't like the direction of travel of the UK and I'm not sure how UK citizens have any real influence.

What influences policy in this country is the billionaire party donors, right wing libertarian groups etc not the public.

I never voted for Matthew Elliott, top govt advisor who is very closely connected to the Koch foundation....a group that is financed by fossil fuel interests and pushes for deregulation.

Kind of my argument really. If anyone is unhappy over the degree of representation they have here in the UK, then why would they want to be ruled by an EU president, who will necessarily be even more remote, and over whom they will have even less influence. I just don't get it.

 

[Jake]

Sorry but when someone has spent their whole political life raging against the EU, the Euro, NATO etc etc, I am not entirely convinced when they claim to have turned over a new leaf. It has undoubtedly worked though she got a third of the vote last time.

She can believe what she wants internally, the point is she knows it is now a barren political furrow contrary to what you were saying (but you now appear to agree).

 

[Fergie 307]

There is a huge trade leverage advantage being part of a large trade bloc.

The UKs most important trade markets are: EU, USA, China......UK us now a minnow.

The UK is now weak, it has the highest trade barriers now of any advanced economy.



How exactly have the EU made a mess of immigration?

For exactly the same reason they are now along a mess of Covid vaccination. The machine has become so big and clunky that it is used to taking years to come to any important decision. It simply can't deal with things that need to be done quickly. The original immigration/asylum rule was that a person had to make their application in the first EU country they came to. Ordinarily very sensible. When the current crisis developed the Greeks and Italians quite reasonably pointed out that in the circumstances this was completely unworkable. Have the EU been able to resolve this effectively, no. Not I am sure because of any lack of feeling for those involved, but because he way they make decisions and policies simply isn't able to cope at the speed required. So you still have thousands living in squalid camps, and the system for processing them in chaos.

 

[Fergie 307]

And then we sank.

(I'm joking. I hope)

EDIT: Maybe I should have said instead, "and then you handed the helm to Dominic Raab; who didn't realise we were surrounded by water - how's that going to work out?"


Ignoring the final sentence (because that really could do with some references and/or evidence) do you want your government to be able to make rapid changes, or just plod along and keep things running? Personally I'd rather politicians were pretty hamstrung, and could do little more than keeping the light bulbs in the streetlamps lit. When they get free reign to be "agile" it means they screw things up every few years (each time a new set of under qualified morons take charge), and make sweeping changes to education, health, rights, and economics; usually based only on their own personal convictions, and that idea they had whilst they were being b*ggered by one of the bigger boys in the toilets at Eton.


Some years ago I saw a great poll of UKIP supporters; who (unsurprisingly) were strongly against immigration to the UK. They were also quite strongly supportive of the right for Brits to live as ex-pats in Spain. Irony clearly being the thing you use to flatten your shirtony.

hey I'm not suggesting that jumping off the bus because you don't like the destination is without problems. The Brexiteers would say jump whenever you like, we will be there to catch you in a big fluffy cushion. Before the bus is even out of sight you will be whisked off in a Rolls Royce, cocktail in hand, for the land of milk and honey. The remainers would try and persuade you that the destination wasn't so bad, and you should stick along for the ride. If you were stupid enough to want to jump of then they would solemnly assure you that you would undoubtedly break every bone in you body, and be left dead in a ditch at the side of the road, never to be seen again. The truth of course lies somewhere in between, and we will find out in due course.

 

[Noel]

The original immigration/asylum rule was that a person had to make their application in the first EU country they came to. Ordinarily very sensible. When the current crisis developed the Greeks and Italians quite reasonably pointed out that in the circumstances this was completely unworkable. Have the EU been able to resolve this effectively, no. Not I am sure because of any lack of feeling for those involved, but because he way they make decisions and policies simply isn't able to cope at the speed required. So you still have thousands living in squalid camps, and the system for processing them in chaos.

Asylum seekers do not have to apply for asylum status in the first state, safe or otherwise, that they reach. I've heard a few politicians and others saying this recently, mostly UKIP types. It's not the case.
See UN Convention on Refugees, Dublin Regulations, Geneva Convention and finally a UK court case some years ago that upheld a case of a migrant not needing to

 

[Fergie 307]

She can believe what she wants internally, the point is she knows it is now a barren political furrow contrary to what you were saying (but you now appear to agree).

No. If you look it to what she is saying now you will find that there is a lot of wriggle room. So she now advocates EU reform, something that is very unlikely to succeed, leaving the option to leave open when it fails. My suspicion is that this is all a facade, aimed at making them more electable. I suspect f she ever does get real power the mask will fall away pretty rapidly. Let's not forget her father. One of the most unpleasant politicians alive. A holocaust denier, vicious anti semite, homophobe, Islamophobe etc A man who sees nothing wrong with Petain's collaboration with the Nazis, or the rounding up of tens of thousands of French Jews to be sent to concentration camps. You will no doubt say that she expelled him from the party, and yes that is true. The problem is that although the official reason was because of his remarks denying the Holocaust, which incidentally he had made hundreds of times before, without a peep out of his daughter or the party, I have never seen a report where she has directly contradicted those views. Only a month before this blew up she went on record to say how she had been inspired by him and couldn't imagine running the party without the benefit of his "wisdom and experience". So did the party membership rise up to demand he be removed, no. Many actively supported him. I suspect that in reality he wasn't expelled because of his views so much as for his unfortunate habit of airing them very publicly at the most politically inopportune moments. His grand daughter, also a French politician, is just as bad. These are vile people.

 

[sploo]

Kind of my argument really. If anyone is unhappy over the degree of representation they have here in the UK, then why would they want to be ruled by an EU president, who will necessarily be even more remote, and over whom they will have even less influence. I just don't get it.

Ok, so you and I have basically zero individual influence over the EU as a political body. But then we also have effectively zero individual influence over our own government. However, individuals of the likes of Rupert Murdoch do wield not inconsiderable influence over single national governments, but find it much harder to gain the sort of wide power that would be required to manipulate a larger multinational body such as the EU. That for me is a big plus.

 

[Fergie 307]

Ok, so you and I have basically zero individual influence over the EU as a political body. But then we also have effectively zero individual influence over our own government. However, individuals of the likes of Rupert Murdoch do wield not inconsiderable influence over single national governments, but find it much harder to gain the sort of wide power that would be required to manipulate a larger multinational body such as the EU. That for me is a big plus.

That is a very valid point, anything that keeps his grubby mitts out of things has definitely got to go in the " things in favour" column.