Breadboard ends advice

[Craigus]

I'm putting together a Walnut table top for a small table we have, the top dims are 600 wide x 760 long. I'm not overly concerned about the wood movement in a relatively small piece, the breadboards are for the aesthetic as much as anything and to help cover the slightly untidy end joins where the boards aren't jointed perfectly.

I've not tackled anything like this before, I've read a bit about breadboard ends and how to do them properly, gluing only the center tenon etc, but does anyone have any general practical advice? It's in 22mm Walnut, so all the tenons will be quite thin.

Also, any tips for finishing the Walnut to bring the best out of the grain/colour and give it some decent protection? I'm thinking a few coats of Danish oil and a lacquer over that.

 

[custard]

600mm wide isn't "a relatively small piece", 600mm can certainly split so you must only glue the centre tenons and cut the outer mortices over wide by at least 3mm (with most of the slack on the inside). If you want more security and even more of an Arts & Crafts look, you can drawer the tenons, but again you need elongated holes for the outer tenons to allow for shrinkage. Don't try and get away with just tenons, you need a full length "haunch" or stab tenon as well as (probably three) main tenons, otherwise inevitable shrinkage means there'll eventually be a gap between the breadboard end and the main table that you can see right through to the floor, and that looks terrible!

Walnut takes oil beautifully, no need to lacquer on top.

Good luck!

 

[Craigus]

Thanks, that all makes sense. What do you mean by "drawer the tenons"?

This is a little sketch of what I was planning.

The haunch is only 15mm and the tenons protrude 45mm into a 75mm breadboard. Does that seem reasonable?

I want to stop short of the edge with the mortise on the breadboard so that any potential dodgy joinery is hidden too, I'm still fairly amateurish and doing it all with hand tools...

 

[custard]

Sorry, I meant bore draw the tenons but the spell checker caught me out! In other words precisely what your plan shows!

You have the haunch/stub tenon terminating before the end, so that's it's a stopped tenon. Nothing wrong with that, but equally there's nothing wrong with running it right out the end which makes it all just a little bit easier.

A 15mm haunch looks fine, anything from 10-15mm would do the job, and a 45mm tenon length is also fine. The only thing I'd really point to is the position of your draw bore holes, they should be 1.0-1.5x the diameter of the hole away from the shoulder, yours look way too far away from the shoulder.

Nice sketch by the way!

Good luck!

 

[mseries]

Really 3 tenons in four boards ?

 

[Jacob]

A little table like this normally doesn't need breadboard ends. Just getting a neat join at the ends would be very much easier. The top would be kept straight (enough) by the buttons, if properly fitted to allow movement.
Have a look at some old tables - BB ends are relatively uncommon and reserved for special circs e.g. breadboards, drawing or pastry boards or kitchen tables in a variable humidity environment

PS and BB ends defeats the objective of concealing movement - quite the opposite - movement will show at the ends. They will help keep it flat but that's another thing.
No BB ends = no signs of movement if the thing is kept flat by the buttons but still free to move.

 

[Craigus]

That's interesting Jacob, I have however cut stuff to length now so there is no going back.

 

[custard]

Really 3 tenons in four boards ?

No problems there, after glueing up the top it's three tenons in one board.

 

[woodbrains]

Really 3 tenons in four boards ?

Hello,

Whatever the number, there really should be an odd number of tenons, so three is as good as any.

What does the OP intend to do about the look of the BB ends when the wood movement of the main tabletop makes them not flush anymore? I have made BB ends deliberately longer and put some detail on their ends, chamfers etc. so when the top becomes narrower, it will not look obvious and when the tabletop widens in times of higher humidity, it does not stick out past the BB's, which looks awful IMHO.

Mike.

 

[deema]

There are two apparent conflicts in advise given, which are actually IMO both correct. Normally you would construct a table or panel with an odd number of boards, the reason for this is that when you glue up the panel you place each board so that the heart side of the tree is first uppermost and then for the next board downward. By having an odd number of boards, the heartwood side of the boards is in the same orientation at either side of the panel. Each board should if your making breadboard ends have its own tenon. The tennon should be in the centre of the board which is the point of maximum cupping to hold is straight, the stub tennons that join the main tennons therefore lie in the edge of the board where the cupping or movement is least. Orientation the boards in this way minimises the overall dishing of the panel, and any movement causes a ripple across the panel / table rather than a curved surface.
So, an odd number of tennons is good advise, and the query over three tennons in four boards is also correct IMO.

Good look with the project.

 

[Craigus]

Really 3 tenons in four boards ?

Hello,

Whatever the number, there really should be an odd number of tenons, so three is as good as any.

What does the OP intend to do about the look of the BB ends when the wood movement of the main tabletop makes them not flush anymore? I have made BB ends deliberately longer and put some detail on their ends, chamfers etc. so when the top becomes narrower, it will not look obvious and when the tabletop widens in times of higher humidity, it does not stick out past the BB's, which looks awful IMHO.

Mike.

I've cut them 50mm longer on both ends for a bit of "bugger up tolerance" when cutting the mortises and was going to cut them flush once fitted, but I may leave them 20mm wider and chamfer the ends. Thanks for that.

There are two apparent conflicts in advise given, which are actually IMO both correct. Normally you would construct a table or panel with an odd number of boards, the reason for this is that when you glue up the panel you place each board so that the heart side of the tree is first uppermost and then for the next board downward. By having an odd number of boards, the heartwood side of the boards is in the same orientation at either side of the panel. Each board should if your making breadboard ends have its own tenon. The tennon should be in the centre of the board which is the point of maximum cupping to hold is straight, the stub tennons that join the main tennons therefore lie in the edge of the board where the cupping or movement is least. Orientation the boards in this way minimises the overall dishing of the panel, and any movement causes a ripple across the panel / table rather than a curved surface.
So, an odd number of tennons is good advise, and the query over three tennons in four boards is also correct IMO.

Good look with the project.

Also very interesting, I have aligned the boards this way but obviously don't have the same orientation at each edge.

All great info for next time even if I can't make use of it this time. I learn best by doing these things so thought I'd jump straight in and see, whilst I don't want to waste a load of lovely walnut, how bad can it end up... Famous last words. I'll post some pics when I finish it off.

Thanks everyone for the advise.

 

[deema]

The outer edge boards of the table should have the heartwood side uppermost, as the boards will bow upwards. This orientation will ensure that if they bow that anything placed on the edge of the table will tilit very slight in towards the centre of the table.