Bosch Fixed Base and Plunge Router?

[Mike.C]

In this months issue of Good Woodworking, they test the Bosch GMF 1400 CE Router, which they say is the first fixed and plunge based router.

At £325 it is not cheap, but if you are in the market for both types of router, it could be a bargain, or could it?

What do you think?

Cheers

Mike

 

[mark_h]

I have also seen this in GWW. I think it is excellent news as these combo kits have been available in the US for some time now.

I first encountered fixed base routers with the cheap unit that B&Q briefly marketed some three or four years ago. Subsequently I imported a Porter Cable D handle router from the US which I use in conjunction with my T11.

I think the review in GWW was very fair and would agree that having both fixed and plunge routers is the best of both worlds.

I'm hoping this inspires other manufacturers to start marketing their US combo kits over here, particularly Black and Decker as the new owners of Porter Cable.

Mark H

 

[Jake]

I have never seen what possible advantage a fixed base router has over a decent plunge router. Just another way in which US practices are stuck in the past to my mind.

 

[Offcut]

I'm not sure what the advantages are as well. Anyone care to elaborate?

Andy

 

[Anonymous]

I could...

 

[tibbs]

Claims I've seen on the net in favour of fixed-base are :-

The router body is held more rigidly in the base, reducing flexing & jitter of the cutter under heavy loads.

The center of gravity is lower making the router easier to control.

The handles are closer to the workpiece (as they're mounted on the base rather than the motor body), also making the router easier to control.


Personally, I'm not convinced - they seem more like defensive statements against plunge bases. I think any of those advantages are far outweighed by the depth control & safety advantages of the plunge base. Apart from anything else the fixed base looks far too fiddley to adjust accurately.

Richard

 

[Scrit]

Speaking from personal experience I have or have had Stanley, B&D Industrial and Porter-Cable fixed base routers as well as Elu, deWalt, Bosch, Ryobi, Makita and Mafell plungers over the years, so I've sampled a few flavours and the plunge rourter has got steadily better as the years have gone by.

Claims I've seen on the net in favour of fixed-base are :-

The router body is held more rigidly in the base, reducing flexing & jitter of the cutter under heavy loads.

The center of gravity is lower making the router easier to control.

The handles are closer to the workpiece (as they're mounted on the base rather than the motor body), also making the router easier to control.

True, but there are very few occasions on which that makes a difference, IMHO. The main one is probably when doing freehand work, such as carving names, patterns, etc. But for that and alternative solution is to use a laminate trimmer (which is a fixed base router after a fashion). Never noticed if my DW625 flexes or not to be honest.

There is a downside, though, this "controllability" comes at the cost of both poor visibility and rubbish dust extraction......

The only other pluses of fixed base routers are:

1. they come with a built-in micro depth adjustment (something which has been largely addressed on plunge routers in recent years). This makes them a bit more suitable for use in a fixed jig or router table as you don't have to buiy an accessory

2. They can be swapped out of a fixed base mounted permanently in a router table and into another base for overhead use in a matter of seconds and with less hassle then unbolting a plunger

3. They are generally earier to adjust for depth of cut under a router table than a plunger - with the caveat that Triton and Bosch both have solutions to this

4. and in the USA at least, they are cheaper, meaning that you can afford to have more single-function routers.

I have to profess a liking for the hand holding position of the Porter-Cable 691 D-handle router with the large D-handle at the back and a screw-on knob which goes at the front to the left or the right - BTW, note the price of that item, under £100 - but the Mafell LO50e and smaller Festools have a system which makes them just as controllable and they can plunge, too. It is also possible to use an LO50e single handed, not sopmething I'd try with the P-C.

Perhaps the best thing to say is that I don't intend to buy any more fixed base routers in the future - I don't need a router in a router table, so there's no big plus for me.

Scrit

 

[Mike.C]

Scrit, a mind of information as usual, thanks.

So its not a hit then. :shock: :wink:

Oh well, just thought i would ask. They do say that its good to talk and all that.

Cheers

Mike

 

[Scrit]

So its not a hit then. :shock: :wink:

OIylll gie it tooooow

A hit? Not at £325, no. Don't get me wrong I like my P-C, it's just that I think the world has moved on in the last 30 years. The Bosch has had reasonable reviews in the USA (as has the P-C 890 series and the deWalt base-swap system), but unless you really need the ability to hang it under a router table there are cheaper solutions around - DW625s (or whatever they are called, Trend T10/T11, CMT 1850, etc) are just over £200 these days as a point of comparison.

Scrit

 

[Philly]

Go on Andy-we're listening :wink:
Philly

 

[Mike.C]

Scrit,

Don't need one, and even if i did i wouldn't get a fixed base router. More of a p---take. :wink:
I was just waiting for someone to mention old Norm and his collection of them.

Cheers

Mike

 

[Scrit]

Norm who???

 

[wrightclan]

As an American, living and working in Britain, I can say I couldn't live without my fixed base router. I have a two base system, and use the plunge base for less than one percent of operations--the fixed base is just soooo much handier and more comfortable than using a dedicated plunge router. If we are all honest, we'll admit that very few operations actually require a plunging action in the middle of a piece--that's the only time I use a plunge router or plunge base. (Granted I have a model which I bought in the U.S. for less than a third of what Bosch is charging in this country--the only drawback is having to use a transformer all the time.) Richard, I really can't see any safety advantages to using a plunge router, actually, I feel far safer with a fixed base.

As far as Americans being stuck in the past, I think we are just more willing to hold onto what works even when new technology comes along. i.e. we are willing to use new ideas (indeed we come up with many of them and we all drool over many of them in woodworking mags and catalogues) but we don't consign old ideas to the dustbin, just because something new comes along.

A perfect example is how it is next to impossible to find parts for older machines in this country, when those parts would be readily available and cheap in the U.S. (or Canada).

Brad

 

[mailee]

As far as I can see it looks like maybe the router will be a big hit in the USA if the price is right, but over here I don't really think it will take off. We brits have been used to the plunge router for so many years now it is just second nature. I do not have any fixed base ones in my collection but have used one once and didn't like it. It is personal taste of course and not everyone will agree with me but I don't think they will have a real market over here.

 

[Scrit]

Hi Brad

If we are all honest, we'll admit that very few operations actually require a plunging action in the middle of a piece--that's the only time I use a plunge router or plunge base.

I can think of a few things I use a plunge router for where there is no safe way the utilise a fixed base router - lock mortising in doors, worktop jointing (a multi-depth step cut), stopped grooves for metal pan bars, etc. although I also find the plunge facility useful for all sorts of cut-outs, too, like sink and hob openings in kitchens. Granted these aren't necessarily everyday tasks for the DIYer or amateur woodworker but the plunge facility takes away the absolute need to purchase one specific machine, the mortiser or resort to chopping-out by hand. Maybe it's worth bearing in mind that the first plunge router was introduced in 1949 by Elu for the tradesman and that tradesmen in Europe moved away en masse from the fixed base router in the 1960s and 1970s.

Richard, I really can't see any safety advantages to using a plunge router, actually, I feel far safer with a fixed base.

As to feeling safer with a fixed base router, I feel it's actually much quicker to "unplunge" a plunge router and set it down on the bench than it is to wait for a fixed-base to run down before setting it down on it's side. Yes, you can make a shelf for them, but it's a bit awkward to carry that shelf round with you on site, even if that "site" is your own kitchen. Oh, and I still have and use a P-C D-handle router, but it will be replaced by either a Festool or a Mafell back-handle plunger when the time comes due.

About the only plus to using a fixed base I can see is possibly the adjustability when used in a router table, but even there most plungers these days have fine height adjusters available.

As far as Americans being stuck in the past, I think we are just more willing to hold onto what works even when new technology comes along. i.e. we are willing to use new ideas (indeed we come up with many of them and we all drool over many of them in woodworking mags and catalogues) but we don't consign old ideas to the dustbin, just because something new comes along.

I really have to protest that statement - companies like Festool and Fein (to name just two) are making such huge inroads into the power tool market in the USA, despite their high price tags, precisely because they innovate. The same is true of woodworking machinery where, with the exception of a few innovative companies like Kreg and Tom Ritter's company, the US indiginous manufacturing sector has all but disappeared under an onslaught of high tech and high efficiency European machinery at the top end and low-cost clones (increasingly of European designs) from the Taiwanese and Chinese at the other. Both the examples I have given (Kreg and Ritter) are equally unusual in that they succesfully export, something that American woodworking machinery and power tool manufacturers have all but ceased to do. Even the "home" power tool market for woodworking tools in the USA is now divided pretty much equally between the Americans (deWalt/Porter-Cable - with many of the deWalt tools now designed and in some cases manufactured in Europe, most notably the best-selling plunge routers), Europeans (Bosch - who took over Stanley's power tool division many years ago and who at that time already owned Skil, Milwaukee - now a division of Swedish company Atlas-Copco and Freud - purveyors of tools designed and manufactured by other European concernerns such as Felisatti in Italy and Casals in Spain) and finally the Japanese (Makita, Hitachi, Panasonic and Ryobi - now Chinese owned?)

I'd say the one area where the USA still has some edge is in tooling materials technology - we have been slower in the uptake of materials such as diamond tips on sawblades, solid carbide tooling and TCT bandsaw blades here. But having said that the Europeans and Israelis are now streets ahead in tooling design and on tooling safety grounds with companies like Gudho, Leitz (owners of Onsrud tool), etc having become major players in the USA.

Scrit

 

[Nick W]

I second what Scrit says.

If any American companies are looking to increase exports, then how about sending us some cyclone collectors?

 

[ivan]

What possible advantage does a fixed base have over a plunge, when fitted to a router table? As far as I can see from the US mag FineWoodworking, as soon as Uncle Sam gets home with his fixed base router he's out shopping for a router lift (which looks awfully like a pair of plunge columns to me). At that combined price, Uncle could get a passable spindle moulder....

 

[wrightclan]

Scrit,

I was not suggesting that the U.S. is necessarily the leader in new technology in every or even most areas. What I am saying is that we take up that technology (wherever it may come from) and even innovate at times without discarding the good aspects of older technology.

As far as fixed-base routers go, there have been a number of advances in the technology of those in the past number of years--they have not stood still. Milwaukee for example was the first to innovate with through-the-table height adjustment in a fixed base model at a price far less than the other users of similar height adjustment.

As far as many of the European and Japanese manufacturers you mentioned, many of them have branches which cater solely to the North American market, with products which the North American market demands. The two base system has been around for a long time, and even Bosch has been selling such a system in North America for several years (at about a third of the price here, I might add). So have Makita, Porter-Cable (the inventors of such), Ryobi, Craftsman (an American brand which is largely produced in the Far East now), DeWalt, et al. Makita even manufactures their North American products in the U.S. ( My system is Makita).

We have had dedicated plunge models as long as you have, and they certainly have their uses, or they wouldn't have been developed. Most serious American woodworkers probably have at least one. All I am saying is that a fixed base is more convenient, comfortable, controllable, and safe for most operations. For certain operations, such as any kind of morticing (notice in my first response, I mentioned those operations which require a plunge in the middle of a piece--I think lock morticing fits that description), only a plunge router will really do--that's where I will use my plunge router. As far as worktop joining, the same depth graduations can be achieved quickly with most fixed-base routers, and don't require to be particularly accurate.

I know this debate could go on and on, I just thought I would respond to what I think were misunderstandings of my original point.

Ivan,

Most router lifts are not helpful with fixed-bases,they are primarily used with plunge router--to overcome the resistance of a plunge router and/or to provide above-the-table adjustment ( an advantage with either type.)

Brad

 

[ivan]

Most router lifts are not helpful with fixed-bases,they are primarily used with plunge router--to overcome the resistance of a plunge router and/or to provide above-the-table adjustment ( an advantage with either type.)

Why not just take out the column springs? Doesn't top adjustment get in the way of checking bit height? I find it quite convenient to squat down with my eye at table height to view bit and ruler, (or Trend height gauge) with one hand under the table twiddling the height adjuster. I'd still have to squat down to see the bit, even if I had a top adjuster. By using a cranked spanner I can change bits easily from above (with one hand underneath for the shaft lock)

 

[wrightclan]

Ivan,

I wasn't suggesting that router lifts are a good investment. I think they're a waste of money. And just because American mags are full of them does not mean we all buy them. My point was, router lifts have nothing to do with the fixed base debate.

As far as top adjustment getting in the way of checking bit height. Please note: I am not writing this to champion any type of height adjuster. I just think you're not aware of how top adjustment works. Most will have a zeroing facility, that can be set when the bit is flush with the top, and then height will be adjusted from there, similar to many fine height or depth adjusters on a router, except that you can adjust it and read it from above.

Brad