best way to cut tenons on a spindle moulder

[RogerS]

I'm thinking of door tenons and casement window tenons.

Is it best to use a dedicated tenoning head or grooving cutters? Or a wobble saw?

How feasible is it to do both sides of the tenon in one pass and how much stock can I hog off realistically in one pass?

The stock will be hand fed (but well clamped) on a sliding table. The spindle moulder is a Kity 1629 (1HP motor?).

Many thanks

Roger

 

[jasonB]

For door tennons you will need a tennoning head or block with a countersunk top fixing as you need a long tennon it will most likely need to pass over the top of the spindle shaft.

Whether you can cut both sides of the tennon in one pass will be determined by the power of your machine and again the distance from cutter edge to the spindle. And also the appiture in the table and hood will limit the O/A dia of block/head.

There was quite a long post on this when JFC was asking about tennons on the spindle.

Jason

 

[RogerS]

There was quite a long post on this when JFC was asking about tennons on the spindle.

Jason

And I also went off-topic on one of my posts about this subject.. and I see that Scrit has already answered this question.

Now where's my coat?

 

[Scrit]

As Jason says there was along post started by JFC some time back, Roger.

As for tooling I'll add this - you can't use a true wobble saw to cut tenons, it will only cut grooves as the cut is radiused at the bottom and not the square-shouldered cut you need for tenons. The main problems about stacking tooling are firstly having the available power to spin the cutterset (or stacked tooling) which will give you sufficient depth of cut - for example a 100mm rebate block with a centre boss ring of 40mm diameter like this:

will give you no more than about 28mm tenon cheek length. Enough for a stub tenon or for use in furniture, but the 100mm or wider tenons required for making exterior frame and panel doors are typicaly produced using sets like this 260mm pair which require 4HP or more to spin:

as well as requiring a tenoning hood large enough to accommodate them. I doesn't really matter that they cannot be retracted beneath the table if you are using a sliding carraige (which you seem to have):

with a tenoning plate as this will lift the work sufficiently above the table to ensure the undercut.

I think that for smaller, lower power machines Jason's approach of utilising a recessed cutterblock with a flush-topped block is a better approach, although you should try to ensure that the cutter is not over the nut threads - this is often achieved by having a spindle top piece such as those on the Felder machines which use an Allen key-secured top "cap" holding down an inset washer rather than the running For smaller machines

(With thanks to Felderman for his picture)

For reference the post was here

Scrit

 

[RogerS]

Thanks Scrit.

Looking at the tenoning heads from Axminster aka Whitehill, they don't appear to have a recess for fixing and so how can you fly the stock over the top ? Maybe you can't with this type of head?

Do you have any reference to the Whitehill Combi head in your picture. Can't locate it on the Whitehill site.

Many thanks

 

[JFC]

Hi Roger , i did a post on this a while ago :lol:
I think i would have to change the spindle on my machine to do door tenons . Is this an option ?

 

[Scrit]

I think I would have to change the spindle on my machine [a Bursgreen RS] to do door tenons . Is this an option ?

Hi Jason

The manufacturer's spec. on the BRS from 1959 says the top piece comes in 1in diameter with options of 3/4in or 1-1/4in sizes. The spec. also quotes:

"Included in the Price

Motor and starter, solid loose top piece 1in diameter, pair grooved cutter collars 2-1/2in in diameter, 4 spacing sleeves, fence, set of spanners and tin of lubricant"

I've seen a reference in one of the Wadkin tooling catalogues of the period to French top pieces being available as well, so I'd crank-up the spindle as far as it will go and take a good look. Knowing Wadkin the spindle could possibly have been available either as a fixed spindle or a removable one :roll: ....... If it is removable the base of the spindle will probably either have a locking ring requiring a C-spanner to remove it or will have a locking ring with two flats for a 40 to 50mm open-ended wrench (it'll be Whitworth in all probability, so not metric, but it's in that size range). Lock the spindle and knock off the retaining nut and the ring will lift off followed by the spindle top piece. Another method involves a long nut secured the drive pulley from beneath - not nice to get at on an RS/BRS if that's the case. Unfortunately I can't say what design of top piece is used - earlier Wadkins with removable top pieces often use a parallel shank top piece with a square shoulder and a drive pin on one side - but as this machine was designed in Sagar days (pre-Wadkin), who knows? A stub top piece for a Wadkin would look something like this (sorry, no photos coz I'm on SCM which uses a Morse Taper #5):

The top portion of a stub tenon should be about 50mm high (depending on the height of your cutter, of course) x whatever diameter is the bore of your spindle moulder. A good engineering firm should be able to turn you up a replacement stub top piece with an M12 or M16 threaded hole in the top to take the countersunk head cap screw you'll need to hold the washer supplied with some Whitehill cutters (ask Whitehill for dimensions). You can see the recess clearly in this photo of a standard Whitehill pinned Euro block (it says AXminster, but it's just a re-badged Whitehill):

Looking at the tenoning heads from Axminster aka Whitehill, they don't appear to have a recess for fixing and so how can you fly the stock over the top ? Maybe you can't with this type of head?

Do you have any reference to the Whitehill Combi head in your picture. Can't locate it on the Whitehill site.

Sorry Roger, you'll need to ring them and request the latest catalogue as the web site is well out of date. The now do 2- and 4-cutter rebate blocks as well as two designs of combi block

Whitehill 100mm x 40 high pinned Euro blocks (like the one shown above) are normally supplied as standard with a recess and a hold-down "washer" - to get this on their combi heads and rebate heads you may need to place a special order with them at a small extra charge, but they will do it as this is the method of holding used on the cutter blocks they make for both the Sedgwick and Multico single-end tenoners.

Above: My Whitehill 4-cutter 125mm diameter combi rebating and profiling block

One thing I would recommend is going for alloy blocks on smaller spindle moulders as the machine will be better able to spin them up and brake them to a halt

Scrit

 

[Modernist]

Hang on guys - I've been here myself and made up a recessed top cap for use on with a standard Axminster block, in my case on a Hammer Universal.

I'll post some pics when I get home tonight.

In general I prefer to use a large 250mm diameter OMAS type slotter which can produce 100mm bridle joints removing up to 15mm thickness at a time. It is easier to move the spindle up and down for successive cuts on heavy timber. I drive this with the 3HP motor but it is working for it's living.

Come back later

 

[Scrit]

In general I prefer to use a large 250mm diameter OMAS type slotter which can produce 100mm bridle joints removing up to 15mm thickness at a time. It is easier to move the spindle up and down for successive cuts on heavy timber.

It all depends on cost and the ability of the machine to actually spin-up and brake a 250mm block (and the presence of a top guard which will accommodate the cutterblock) - unless you have 3HP it's generally accepted that you won't have the power to do this, hence the suggestions regarding stub top pieces. Incidentally, unlike blocks from firms like CMT, the standard Whitehill block (as sold badged Axminster) should be delivered with the recess machined out and a countersunk retaining "washer" supplied. Whitehill sell the retaining screws - which are used on many machines (I believe that Felder/Hamer machines are a relatively unusual design) - but there is a safety reason for using a stub top piece over using a conventional threaded top piece when using a block secured by a retaining "washer" - if the cutter block is being supported on a threaded portion of the spindle top piece there is a greater liklihood of excessive vibration which can result in loosening of the retaining "washer". If much tenoning is being done the combination block mentioned by Roger is really a much better solution than a pinned Euro block as the carbide blades do a lot of the work and reduce wear and tear on the scribing cutters. The nickers also help reduce break-out on square shoulders. The stub arbor approach isn't new and has been offered on lower powered spindle moulders since at least the 1940s.

Scrit

 

[ProShop]

Heres a pic of the modified cap for a Felder/Hammer to use a combihead for making very long tennons I posted some time back, plus the big bonus is you can profile scribe as well to produce good quality mouldings for your doors & windows.

As Scrit mentions unfortunately Roger would be struggling to use this or a 250mm dia block due to power constraints of 1hp on his machine, I doubt if it will even spin up.

 

[Modernist]

Yes I was confused as I have only ever owned a Robland and more recently the Hammer mouder, neither of which have a screw on top. None of the washers with the Axminxter block fit the Hammer hence my modification. I can't see why a 1HP spindle should not be OK with the "over the top" block so long as you don't try to shift 40mm in one pass.

As you rightly say the guarding is important and this becomes more difficult/important as you move the fence back for over the top tenonning. I use the Hammer tenonning setup, which covers the large slotter, but is a bit of a pain to set up.

 

[Modernist]

Thanks to Felderman that is what I have made for my own set up!
Saved me a job tonight