Bench Saw

[Lazurus]

Ok so after 20 plus years without one I am getting the urge to spend. I have always used a bandsaw as most of my cutting was for turning, now getting the need for a compact but accurate sawbench. So many of the reviews for 10" saws are pretty derogatory on build quality and accuracy I am at a loss where to start.
Space is limited, but I would rather have a bigger footprint than a small saw which does not do the job. I like to hear from users rather than new purchase reviews, I am open to any suggestions as I would rather get this right first time.

Stuart

 

[MikeJhn]

You may wish to look at this: axminster-ts250-2-modifications-t102284.html obviously it does not have to put on a base and could be used as a bench top saw.

Mike

 

[Lazurus]

That's a lot of work to bring a new saw up to spec. And that's the issue I have with most of the Chinese type hobby saws, great writ up though. Just too much faff to bring a saw to a useable standard in my opinion.

 

[memzey]

You could go second hand and get something like a Wadkin AGS 10”. Unlikely to let you down and built to standards that few are today.

 

[Fitzroy]

But equally likely to need some fiddling with to get it set us as you want. I’ve bought a few old bits now, wadkin planer, fobco drill, kity table saw. And whilst they are all now great and seem bomb proof they all took some fiddling with. Bearings replaced on wadkin, full strip down on kity and a paint job on the fobco. If you buy a fully refurbished unit of these makers then I’m sure they will be bob on but you’ll pay a pretty penny.

F.

 

[Lazurus]

I don't mind a bit of fettling or setting up, my main concern is that many of the new saws have poor quality materials and are just not fit for purpose.

 

[Lazurus]

This is a typical review of a 10" saw with most of my concerns listed

My first impression:
I liked it a lot. Size and weight met my expectations for the saw I needed.
A sliding table on a jobsite saw for that price made it about perfect.
It came pretty much assembled, just the blade and weaver where extra.
The first cut through 18mm (3/4 inch) plywood went smooth.
That was it until I had built the stand.

Once the saw was up on the stand i wanted to start building boxes and that is where trouble started and I had to examine the saw closer. So here is my review for those around the globe who are intending to buy that saw.

Sliding Table: The table didn’t run smooth at all. The factory lubricants goo’ed it together. It was quite a bit of work to get it out there.
Lubricating it with silicone lets it run but the way it is constructed gives it so much play to the sides that it is not accurate at all.
Another disadvantace ist that is about 1,5mm (1/8 inch) higher than the main table so no matter what you cut reaches the blade angled.
Makita doesn’t provide any information for a setup.
I’m still working on this.

Rip Fence: Unlike other jobsite table saws the MLT Fence is only mounted on the front. Its mounting mechanism is cast aluminum. It runs on a small plastic base.
On top of it comes a adjustable part where the exdruded aluminum fence is attached with two screws. To my mind too many variables for a sturdy fence.
The aluminium fence with only 15mm (2/3 inch) is way to flexible. It barely makes it past the blade and doesn’t provide enough support for straight cuts.
Setting the fence up is a pain in the butt. The plastic base reflects the highs and lows in the surface. You have to adjust the fence in every position so it lays flat on the table.
The screws loosen after a couple cuts.
The mounting mechanism has play in every direction which may cause a non 90° angle to the surface. The easiest way to solve a few of these problems ist by taking the plastic base out and accept the wear and tear that the cast aluminium does to the table. The fence is still not stable when ripping longer boards and easily causes kick back. The way it is constructed it can be readjusted to be used on both sides.
I am working on a easy build custom fence for less than 40€ (52$) and let you all know if it makes the saw a decent deal.

Throat Plate:
Now here Makita screwed up big time. The plate is cheap and flexible plastic. Any pressure you put on the wood you are cutting bends the throat plate and screwes up the cut. The clearance they put in is more than any angle postion needs.
The tear off at the bottom of the board is really ugly.
Simple solution a zero clearance throat plate.
Well if you could just make one simple everything would be fine.
The 5mm (1/5 inch) wood insert I made was to flexible. It needed a rabbet at the end to fit in in the first place but adding 12mm (1/2 inch) plywood on the right side asked for a lot of extra cuts.
The support on the left side was tricky. It needs to have 1mm difference between front and back. I am happy that I built it because now I get good result talking about clean cuts.
It takes about 2 hours and half a dictionary of cusswords to assemble it.

The Cast Aluminum Table: I don’t get the point why Makita added these design slots and logo to the table.
If you are looking for something flat, look somewhere else. I guess it is okay for a saw in that price range.
The wear an tear becomes abvious after a couple cuts with the mitre gauge.
The table comes with 2 slots for runners. The slots are 12,54mm (1/2 inch) wide and 6mm (1/4 inch) deep. A little small for stable runners especially when you look and slots addes to the side to guide the mitre gauge.
I am afraid to measure if they have the same width all the way from front to back. I can tell you though that they don’t have the same depth.

The Mitre Gauge.
The mitre gauge is also cast aluminium with the extruded aluminum fence attached with 2 screwes just like the rip fence.
The earlier mentioned problems strike back here.
If you use the mitre gauge on the sliding table it’s elevated above the main table.
If you run the mitre gauge on the main table the fence has to be lifted or angled so it runs over the sliding table.
Running the the mitre gauge on the main table brings another problem. The steel runner is 0,5mm smaller than the slot which causes so much play that I haven’t made a single 90° cut no matter what I set up or how I pusched, how tight it was if I added support or whatever. I haven’t figured that one out yet. Current idea a PA (polyamid) runner that is exact for that slot.
The mitre gauge is responsible for the main wear and tear on the table surface. 2month occasionally use wore of the paint already at all high spots.

Dust Extraction: That ist he only thing I am happy with so far. An attached shop vac takes care of it. Every now and then I need to vacuum the stand but it is not worth mentioning.

Table Extension: The MLT comes with an extendable outfeed table and extendable side table. Both run on pipes and can be adjusted to any position but I haven’t had any use for it yet. In fact I am planning on taking the outfeed option of to attach railing for new rip fence.

Noise. The direct drive causes vibration when starting the saw and it quite noisy.
It is just about same as other jobsite saws.

Neat options: The saw has all kinds of attachments to store the push stick, extra blades, the square to setting up the blade, the rip fence, cable and so on.
It is well thought through but doesn’t make up fort he deficits.

 

[MikeJhn]

That's a lot of work to bring a new saw up to spec. And that's the issue I have with most of the Chinese type hobby saws, great writ up though. Just too much faff to bring a saw to a useable standard in my opinion.

Putting a dust extraction port on the saw and lining up the blade a lot of work? because that't all I did on the TS-250, everything else was non essential, no matter what saw you buy the dust extraction will be inadequate and the blade will need aligning.

The Cast Iron sliding mitre table is perfect for the job, completely negates the need for a mitre gauge and the metric mitre slots which some seem to find a problem.

if you think this is too much work I would suggest you stick with your bandsaw.

Are your initials DR by any chance.

Mike

 

[Lazurus]

No, and I was concerned with build quality and accuracy rather than "too much work"

 

[MikeJhn]

That's a lot of work to bring a new saw up to spec.

 

[heimlaga]

Let's not bury ourselves in the old threnches from the previous world war.... aye?

There are lots of people who use hobby saws from the far east and proclaim that they are good for everything and nothing old is any good. That is not true.
There are lots of people who use old stationary cast iron saws and proclaim that they are good for everyone and nothing new is any good. That is not true.

A portable benchtop saw like the universially promoted Axminster TS250 will never ever under any cirkumstances be as good as it's heavily built stationary professional grade counterpart.
That is just a matter of fact.
When a machine is built to a low price point it will end up inferrior. If it is built small and lightweight it will usually end up even more inferrior (unless it is a hand held machine).
Theese are basic laws of capitalism and of mechanics which no amount of set up time will ever change.

Hence a high quality stationary cast iron saw with three phase motor will always be superrior to it's cheaper counterparts. It will always be easier to set up and more efficient and accurate in use.

However everyone isn't rich. High end saws don't come cheap and they also take up space which doesn't come cheap either. Though there are two very different ways to get by with less money:
- Buy the best of the bad bunch of cheap-ish saws. It is likely to be good enough to carry a hobbyist through quite a few projects and it doesn't require very much time and mechanic skills to set up. It may also be more compact and fit readily into a cramped workshop. However it will never ever be equal to a professional grade saw in any respect.
-Buy an old professional grade cast iron saw and rebuild/retrofit it to make it equal to a new professional grade cast iron saw. This often requires a significant input of one's own time but if you do it for yourself you can count with a hourly pay without income tax and commuting costs and VAT so usually you get a very good leverage on your investment of time and money. Even though this is the best way to go financially speaking it will not be the best way for everyone. Some don't have enough time for a rebuild and some don't have enough space for a high end machine.


Myself I have bought all my stationary machines secondhand and rebuilt them from the bottom up. Though I am poor I can yet afford a workshop whose equal would cost over 50000 euros if fitted out using cash instead of using junk and time and ingenuity.
In my oppinion that's the way to go for anyone who has a bit of time and a bit of mechanical inclination to carry you through the rebuilds and a bit of space to house some good machinery. However everybody doesn't have those three resources on hand.

Wadkin-Bursgreen 10" AGS and Ejca(or Luna) L18 and L20 and Rapid are all very good table saws for their rather small size. There are several other makes and models as well.
The German made Rapid is my personal favourite among them but essentially they are equal.
The greatest drawback of the common 10"AGS is that early ones don't have the very important riving knife. They can be retrofitted but then one must have a machinist make a few parts and be skilled enough to make it work.
If you have space enough and either the time or the money required to get a saw of this general type I don't think you should try to be satisfied with anything less.

Just my oppinion.

 

[MikeJhn]

Let's not bury ourselves in the old threnches from the previous world war.... aye?

Where did that come from, perhaps that pass's for a Swedish sense of humour, but I don't get it. #-o

Mike

 

[heimlaga]

I tried to provide a ballanced post that is something else than "you must buy new from Axminster" or "you must buy an old Wadkin".
I thought the discussion was heading for those same old threnches where we can throw **** at each others all day across no mans land.

 

[MikeJhn]

Nobody has said the OP must do anything, I suggested he looked at a thread on the Axminster saw and someone else said he could go second hand, it was the OP himself who came out with a copy of a diatribe that threw everything into a quandary.

Mike