Bench dog hole tear out

[The_Haxby_Hermit]

For quite some time I’ve been using Veritas bench dogs and pups on my bench, which is made of European Redwood. A little while ago I splashed out on a Veritas Bench Hold Down, as I often need to pin items down on my bench to carve. The Hold Down is a brilliant piece of kit, however the ribs on the shaft have started to rip my bench dog holes to such an extent that some of them are now too loose for ordinary bench dogs. What do you guys suggest? Drill some more dog holes? Sack the Veritas hold down in favour of a set of holdfasts with smooth shafts? Any advice would be most welcome, thanks.

 

[Jacob]

..... Sack the Veritas hold down in favour of a set of holdfasts with smooth shafts?...

Basically a bad design and astronomically expensive.
Slightly better smooth, with a thick hardwood bench top say 3" beech. Other designs include a metal insert but you wouldn't want them all over the bench.
I use use long bolts, to hold down a piece of timber as a bench top clamp. Drill a hole through as and when needed. Much cheaper, better holding, no damage to bench or workpiece and infinitely adaptable.
A long piece of timber with a bolt each end makes a panel clamp for DTs or carving etc.

 

[Cabinetman]

I don’t like the look of those ribs, I don’t wonder it started to chew the bench up, I have smooth shafted ones from Gramercy, I believe you can get them from a company in Germany, but they are actually American, can’t recommend them highly enough, forged steel so impossible to damage. just for your information they need and 19 mm hole but would probably work in a 20 just as well. Ian

 

[The_Haxby_Hermit]

I don’t like the look of those ribs, I don’t wonder it started to chew the bench up, I have smooth shafted ones from Gramercy, I believe you can get them from a company in Germany, but they are actually American, can’t recommend them highly enough, forged steel so impossible to damage. just for your information they need and 19 mm hole but would probably work in a 20 just as well. Ian

Thanks Cabinetman, I take it you mean Dieter Scmid in Berlin? I’ve bought from them before and they’re superb

 

[Bm101]

https://www.workshopheaven.com/catalogsearch/result/?order=relevance&dir=desc&q=holdfast

 

[Phil Pascoe]

http://www.tools-warehouse.co.uk/PONY-8quot;-BENCH-HOLD-DOWN-CLAMP/product/POJ1708/044295170802/
look good to me. The stem is a bit small for their use a replacements, though.

edit - I've ordered three, I'll post whether they fit 19mm holes. I have a trestle/mini bench to make so I want to use them on that - if they fit the main bench, so much the better.

 

[Cabinetman]

Duplicate post

 

[Cabinetman]

http://www.tools-warehouse.co.uk/PONY-8quot;-BENCH-HOLD-DOWN-CLAMP/product/POJ1708/044295170802/
look good to me. The stem is a bit small for their use a replacements, though.

edit - I've ordered three, I'll post whether they fit 19mm holes. I have a trestle/mini bench to make so I want to use them on that - if they fit the main bench, so much the better.

Phil, I don’t know how to tell you this, I looked at holdfasts for ages before I bought the Gramercy ones the reviews for the ones you’ve just bought are not good I’m sorry to say, they are cast not forged and snap. I really feel you ought to cancel your order if it’s not too late. Ian

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Thank you.

 

[The_Haxby_Hermit]

Thanks for your replies folks. I realise now that the ribbed stems on the Veritas hold down are a bad idea unless your bench top is hardwood. I’ve looked at the Gramercy holdfasts (which I like the look of) but they’re hard to get in the UK. As Cabinetman has said, there is a supplier in Germany but he is out of stock - and has also suspended all trade with the UK because of Brexit. I now have my eye on a pair of forged holdfasts from Simon Jsmes
Simon James SJJR Holdfasts for 19mm / 3/4in holes (Pair). Does anyone have these?

 

[dannyr]

I got a couple of the very cheap Taiwan forged 19mm hammer-in dogs a few years ago - nearly threw them away, but then tweeked the bench holes (chamfer and slightly enlarged) and slightly roughened the smooth shaft -- they now work a treat on my regular 2.5in thick beech top and a 4in ancient ex-beam bench - a very close grain, resiny, dense 'soft'wood.

Makes me think that the hole and shaft have to be 'just right', also that construction-type softwood is fine for a bench, but not for all bench fixings.

And if you don't have to keep moving your carving, Jacob's through-bench screw suggestion may be a little fiddly but is probably the best holding.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I now have my eye on a pair of forged holdfasts from Simon Jsmes
Simon James SJJR Holdfasts for 19mm / 3/4in holes (Pair). Does anyone have these?

They are very similar to the ones here years ago as part of a group buy - they'll be fine.

 

[Jacob]

.

And if you don't have to keep moving your carving, Jacob's through-bench screw suggestion may be a little fiddly but is probably the best holding.

I posted about it here
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/holdfasts-types-and-uses.119565/#post-1312105It's like the Moxon vice but horizontal and zero cost. (or price of two bolts)
I was experimenting with quickest way to do DTs by hand.
First pic shows an ordinary bolt through. Just a loose fit with a washer on the end out of sight, or wooden packer if I want to shorten it.
Then dug some carvers screws out of a box which had been modified with a bolt head at one end and a fast screw and wing nut at the other. Work the same as a bolt but much faster to adjust or set up. Drill a hole anywhere, attach any bit of wood, use two bolts for a long "Moxon" cramp, or use weights (a.k.a. "gravity clamps")
Lot's of carvers screws here Carver's vise, Carver's screw, Handles for Carving Tools | FINE TOOLS
My two are most similar to the Two Cherries version, except mine have bolt heads in place of the tapered screw end. Previous owner welded them on. I found them in a box of scrap tools.
P.S. I Iike Dieter Schmid's Fine Tools - they do boutique tools just like the usual suspects, but also interesting stuff at normal prices!

 

[custard]

I now have my eye on a pair of forged holdfasts from Simon Jsmes
Simon James SJJR Holdfasts for 19mm / 3/4in holes (Pair). Does anyone have these?

Yes, I've used those for quite a few years now, actually alongside a pair of the Veritas holdfasts! I don't have any tear out problems on my Hard Maple bench and the Veritas holdfasts have a longer reach. However, I still prefer the Simon James holdfasts. They grip much better and are a lot quicker in operation.

Another alternative worth mentioning is a lift out tray or a split centre bench design, which then allows cramping from the back using regular F-cramps.

This has a number of advantages. No holes required, increased flexibility for cramp placement, cheaper as you use existing cramps, and the choice of having the cramp above or below the bench which in turn opens up the possibility of having an under bench shelf or tool drawers.

I recently built a second smaller auxiliary bench for my workshop and decided to go all-in on this approach and have abandoned dog holes entirely. So far it's working out pretty well, but of course that's in the context of the work I do and how I do it, others will have different needs.

Good luck!

 

[brocher]

Cabinetman - I got in touch with Dieter Schmid and got a reply today. They have suspended sales to the UK until they understand all the new red tape they face to export to us!! See their reply

"Thank you for your inquiry.

Corona, Brexit all these issues have stressed our normal business. We have to reorganize our shipping modalities to the UK. But before we have to clear up several fiscal details regarding customs clearance and taxes. It’s a very sophisticated process and we have to pay much attention to all the new regulations.

For this reason, we have decided that the only way to avoid a number of problems is to temporarily suspend shipments to the UK.

We sincerely hope that this unpleasant situation will be of short duration and that we will soon be able to resume supplying our valued UK customers.

We can only apologise for the inconvenience caused.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best Regards / cordiali saluti

Vincenzo Ballacchino


--
Dieter Schmid Werkzeuge GmbH
Wilhelm-von-Siemens-Str. 23
12277 Berlin
Germany

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Phil, I don’t know how to tell you this, I looked at holdfasts for ages before I bought the Gramercy ones the reviews for the ones you’ve just bought are not good I’m sorry to say, they are cast not forged and snap. I really feel you ought to cancel your order if it’s not too late. Ian

The order was on hold anyway, so I got a refund.

 

[Bm101]

Thanks for your replies folks. I realise now that the ribbed stems on the Veritas hold down are a bad idea unless your bench top is hardwood. I’ve looked at the Gramercy holdfasts (which I like the look of) but they’re hard to get in the UK. As Cabinetman has said, there is a supplier in Germany but he is out of stock - and has also suspended all trade with the UK because of Brexit. I now have my eye on a pair of forged holdfasts from Simon Jsmes
Simon James SJJR Holdfasts for 19mm / 3/4in holes (Pair). Does anyone have these?

https://www.workshopheaven.com/catalogsearch/result/?order=relevance&dir=desc&q=holdfast

I think you missed my link?
Custard has since posted a far better and more trusted reply than I could hope to put up. But yeh, I think the Simon James ones are the absolute nuts. Bang done. Bang done. Bang done. With a few spare bits of notched wood it's only limited by what you can think of. It's beautifully effective and brutally simple. You can buy them directly from him on ebay but the star-m bit from W-heaven makes it worthwhile for me. One thing that's worth thinking about is relieving the tops of your dog holes. (You can see in Custard's pics). I also use little mdf collars to protect anything I'm clamping just in case you hadn't seen them.
I'm not sure how anything is faster than clumping it with a hammer which is probably why they have been in use since at least Roman times but when somethings's been around for 2000 years it probably works. Maybe I'm just more traditional than Jacob with his new fangled ideas...

 

[The_Haxby_Hermit]

I think you missed my link?
Custard has since posted a far better and more trusted reply than I could hope to put up. But yeh, I think the Simon James ones are the absolute nuts. Bang done. Bang done. Bang done. With a few spare bits of notched wood it's only limited by what you can think of. It's beautifully effective and brutally simple. You can buy them directly from him on ebay but the star-m bit from W-heaven makes it worthwhile for me. One thing that's worth thinking about is relieving the tops of your dog holes. (You can see in Custard's pics). I also use little mdf collars to protect anything I'm clamping just in case you hadn't seen them.
I'm not sure how anything is faster than clumping it with a hammer which is probably why they have been in use since at least Roman times but when somethings's been around for 2000 years it probably works. Maybe I'm just more traditional than Jacob with his new fangled ideas... View attachment 101429

Cheers, I’m definitely going to invest in the Simon James WH set up (and flog the Veritas hold down. I’ve also got a lot more ideas for clamping stuff down too which is brilliant

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I ran a 6mm radius router cutter around the dog holes to stop any spelching. A couple of minutes and the lot were done.

 

[Jacob]

... Maybe I'm just more traditional than Jacob with his new fangled ideas...

I'm just a cheapskate and don't buy anything if I don't have to!