Bench build question

[DannyEssex]

Hi guys

Sorry if this is in the wrong section, but I have a question about my shop conditions and a bench build.

My "workshop" is basically a 10x8 shed. It has no insulation and I know this is a top priority to get done. But I really want to get started making stuff first and I need a bench to work on so have decided to build a bench as my first project.

Now my worry is after reading up on here loads is that I have read people to advise that when you buy the timber, leave it to settle in its conditions its going to be staying in before working on it.
My plan is to use Wickes or my local timber yard for my timber and if I can I will get them cut the majority to size for me so I can fit it in my car. I am going to be using Wickes planed redwood, 4x2 PSE. I am planning on following Graham's build on his blog here http://gshaydon.co.uk/blog/the-workbench-build-begins
So will be using Tenon and mortice joints etc

So should I leave the cut material to settle for a bit before I start my build or can I get started right away?

If I build the bench in the winter will the summer conditions affect the joints and vice versa?

Or am I worrying to much and should just get on with it

Hope all that makes sense and thanks for any help and advice
Danny

 

[morfa]

When I built my bench with the same kind of timber, I largely just got on with it. If you end up with any movement (especially on the top) you can always plane that flat anyway.

You might find Paul Seller's workbench build useful as well: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLD39949332C7FB168

 

[Benchwayze]

Danny,

If you decide to use Paul Sellers design, then despite what Mr. Sellers claims, no matter how well you joint inexpensive grade timber, it's definitely going to open up at the joints, not long after you remove the sash cramps. Thus, one 'refinement' I would add, are some lengths of all-thread, right through the top, to act as permanent 'sash clamps', which you can tighten or loosen as seasons change. I am using this method with some well seasoned Southern Yellow Pine, and fully expect to have to make adjustments along the way.

Paul Sellers's bench design includes an apron, but if you can get along with the access problem an apron presents, this is a good design that should last you for a long, long time.
HTH

 

[DTR]

I have read people to advise that when you buy the timber, leave it to settle in its conditions its going to be staying in before working on it.

The place I buy my timber (Horndon Timber, incidently not too far from you) roughly matches the conditions in my un-heated, un-insulated shed, so any wood I buy moves very little once it's in the shed

 

[JimF.]

Danny,

If you decide to use Paul Sellers design, then despite what Mr. Sellers claims, no matter how well you joint inexpensive grade timber, it's definitely going to open up at the joints, not long after you remove the sash cramps.

Have to say you are wrong about this. I used even cheaper nastier timber than Paul recommends, took the time to prepare and joint it properly and no way has it or will it open up. The glue joints are stronger than the wood. (That's what it says on the bottle! )

If you are getting that kind of problem on opening the cramps you must be doing something wrong.

The wood should be a good fit. The cramps only hold it in place while the glue sets. You don't cramp too hard or you force too much of the glue out of the joint.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

 

[DannyEssex]

Thanks guys, out of interest how long should you leave it for the glue to dry?

 

[MARK.B.]

Thanks guys, out of interest how long should you leave it for the glue to dry?

Depends on what type of glue you use, if you are not in a hurry leave it to dry over night

 

[Nick Gibbs]

If you want to get going quickly, I recommend buying pine board, which is made up of thin strips, for the top. You can get 30mm thick boards, 600mm wide, so if you make your own underframe, you can have an instant flat top to get woodworking for about £45. I've never been fond of an apron as it seems to get in the way, but my mate Ian built a Sellers-style version (as shown in a recent BW), and loves it. It looks great, and recently he's added a leg vice which works really well.

 

[graduate_owner]

I've seen an interesting design using 4" strips of 3/4" plywood, laminated and glued to make 4 x 4 approx legs and rails. Mortises are made by leaving out middle pieces, creating gaps. Similarly tenons are sections with longer centres. They may need some trimming up, but the bulk of the work is done using this method. The stability of plywood may solve your issues. Perhaps you could make the just the frame using this method, and use solid timber for the top. (Make sure you get a good supply of glue. I suppose a gallon of builders' PVA would be fine.) The design uses nails/screws as well as glue to keep the laminations together.

Worth a thought?

K

 

[Jacob]

I've seen an interesting design using 4" strips of 3/4" plywood, laminated and glued to make 4 x 4 approx legs and rails. Mortises are made by leaving out middle pieces, creating gaps. Similarly tenons are sections with longer centres. They may need some trimming up, but the bulk of the work is done using this method. The stability of plywood may solve your issues. Perhaps you could make the just the frame using this method, and use solid timber for the top. (Make sure you get a good supply of glue. I suppose a gallon of builders' PVA would be fine.) The design uses nails/screws as well as glue to keep the laminations together.

Worth a thought?

K

Dunno seems a madly expensive and time consuming process. 4"x4" timber is readily available from a good yard (it's standard size for stair newel posts) and would be a lot easier.

Glue - edge to edge strength better is you slap it on thick with a palette knife - on both surfaces, with 100% coverage.

 

[DannyEssex]

Cheers for all your replies

I think I have in my mind what I need to do now, although each time i think that something else crops up.

I had a thought earlier, I have two dining table tops in my shed and I dismissed the idea of using them from the start, but know I have been thinking maybe I could use them?

One is pine laminate and is 1" and the other is a solid wood at around 1/2" thick. If I was to plane each surfaces flat, would that be ideal?

I could then screw them together and plug the holes?

Its that or

Start from scratch and laminate some 4x2 (I would then need to get quite a few sash clamps)

Or

Use some ply?

What would you experienced guys suggest?

 

[Nick Gibbs]

I had a thought earlier, I have two dining table tops in my shed and I dismissed the idea of using them from the start, but know I have been thinking maybe I could use them? One is pine laminate and is 1" and the other is a solid wood at around 1/2" thick. If I was to plane each surfaces flat, would that be ideal?
I could then screw them together and plug the holes?

I wouldn't glue two surfaces together like that. It won't make them that much stronger (just heavier), and they are pretty likely to move. I'd use the better of the two, and reinforce it with battens underneath to keep it flat. 1in thick is plenty for a bench top to get going. Go for what is easiest and cheapest at the moment as you can always upgrade as you get better and develop greater expectations!!!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I agree with Jacob - cover both sides of the joint 100% ... but why do some glues actually specify "apply glue to one side of the joint only"? I've never worked that one out, nor seen anyone attempt to answer it. :?

 

[Nick Gibbs]

I've only ever glued one side of the joint. You would have thought glue makers would encourage you to slap it onto both faces, given half a chance. The answer is that you probably don't need as much glue as you expect. I've been experimenting with watered-down PVA recently, having been on a boxmaking course recently with Andrew Crawford, who advocates thinner glue. It doesn't seem to make a big difference to the joint, and is easier to apply and goes further.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

More often than not I spray the joints to be glued with water in the summer - It helps stop the PVA grabbing and drying out too quickly.

 

[Benchwayze]

Danny,

If you decide to use Paul Sellers design, then despite what Mr. Sellers claims, no matter how well you joint inexpensive grade timber, it's definitely going to open up at the joints, not long after you remove the sash cramps.

Have to say you are wrong about this. I used even cheaper nastier timber than Paul recommends, took the time to prepare and joint it properly and no way has it or will it open up. The glue joints are stronger than the wood. (That's what it says on the bottle! )

If you are getting that kind of problem on opening the cramps you must be doing something wrong.

The wood should be a good fit. The cramps only hold it in place while the glue sets. You don't cramp too hard or you force too much of the glue out of the joint.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

Julian,

I didn't say I was getting any problems, and I am well aware of how to cramp up a job. I merely wished to point out that ignoring wood movement and relying on glue is folly. That's how I interpreted Paul Sellers's video when he was planing joint faces for the top, and talking about using store-bought timber from the 'Home-Depot'. Wood is wood. It has been known to move and split regardless of quality or expertise; and I don't think I am wrong about that.

Maybe I was a bit dogmatic, and perhaps it won't happen every time, or as soon as you release the cramps. However, despite your obvious experience, by using inferior grade timber, maybe you were lucky; or perhaps time will tell.

I might be old-fashioned, but reading labels on bottles and believing the glue will 'take up the slack'; and get around shoddy work and/or materials is not how I was taught. Technology might well keep the joint closed, but wet timber drying out is still likely to split.

So to me properly worked joints, and well seasoned wood keeps jobs together. Even then it depends upon where the piece is kept and/or used.

So for all practical purposes I'll stay old-fashioned; and we must agree to disagree?

 

[morfa]

Personally if you're going for a hand tools approach, then I'd go for the Paul Sellers / GS Haydon old school joiners workbench. Make the legs and frame out of 4x4 and the top out of 2x4. If you get a holdfast you can drill a few holes in the top and hold anything down. No need to clamp stuff to the top.

http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/sho ... cts_id=266

Leave the glue over night to cure.

As for the sash cramps? You'll have to buy them eventually anyway, so I'd just get started on them. You can get them for £10 each on ebay.

If you're mostly going to be using power tools, then the door on a frame (made out of PSE 2x4) screwed together will do fine. You can put a thin layer of 'sacrificial' ply on top of that as well.

 

[bugbear]

Here's a simple bench a 12 year old can make:

http://www.oldtoolsshop.com/z_pdf/shopI ... nch-ne.pdf

BugBear

 

[DannyEssex]

Here's a simple bench a 12 year old can make:

http://www.oldtoolsshop.com/z_pdf/shopI ... nch-ne.pdf

BugBear

The link says
The document cannot be found?

 

[JimF.]

I didn't say I was getting any problems, and I am well aware of how to cramp up a job. I merely wished to point out that ignoring wood movement and relying on glue is folly. That's how I interpreted Paul Sellers's video when he was planing joint faces for the top, and talking about using store-bought timber from the 'Home-Depot'. Wood is wood. It has been known to move and split regardless of quality or expertise; and I don't think I am wrong about that.

Of course all wood moves - who can disagree with that?

In all fairness, you used the word definitely, stating with complete certainty:

it's definitely going to open up at the joints, not long after you remove the sash cramps.

"Not long" is one of those imprecise terms that is open to interpretation... 1 day, 1 week, 1 year, 10 years?

Maybe I was a bit dogmatic, and perhaps it won't happen every time, or as soon as you release the cramps. However, despite your obvious experience, by using inferior grade timber, maybe you were lucky; or perhaps time will tell.

Sellers enables people to get started doing woodwork. Sometimes it's better to use what materials you can, rather than wait forever and a day for the perfect (read: expensive) timber. For example, my bench cost just short of £70 to make an 8ft version vs nearly £300 quoted for unsorted redwood. If I had limitless resources I would have gone the unsorted route, but in the real world that's over £200 saved. Either that's £200 that someone didn't have or £200 that can be spent on materials for future projects.

I did take care not to force the wood into any shapes it didn't want to go, I did plane until it fitted together. I did allow the wood to acclimatise itself to my shed. I did glue carefully and I did clamp lightly.

I might be old-fashioned, but reading labels on bottles and believing the glue will 'take up the slack'; and get around shoddy work and/or materials is not how I was taught. Technology might well keep the joint closed, but wet timber drying out is still likely to split.

Who said glue should take up the slack? Who said you should do shoddy work? Who said you should use wet timber? And do you really use stuff without having read the label? That sounds dangerous. One should always know what's being used, its instructions, recommended applications and if any precautions are deemed necessary.

The point of Sellers's bench is that it enables someone with little experience to produce a working bench that is several orders of magnitude better than a Workmate, and for very little financial outlay. At the end of it you have a real bench and some valuable experience. Once the bench is made then the real journey can begin.

My experience (YMMV) is that the bench is not prone to splitting, it is solid, it fulfils its purpose and is the best, most enabling thing I have ever done.