Beech Prices

[ByronBlack]

I'm going to be making a new workbench soon, and have been ringing round getting prices for beech (which has been the cheapest option so far - I initially thought oak).

I was quoted £25 per cubic foot for beech, and £35 for oak - do these seem to be good prices?

And finally, I know i've asked this before, but I can't seem to find the post in the search - how I do I work out the board foot from the cubic foot - i'll be buying 1.5" inch boards.

Finally, my initial plans for the legs and rails will see me making them from a 3ply sandwich of the 1.5" boards (this is to help with the M&T joints - the middle board will extend beyond the outer boards to create the tenon). The thicknesses I have sketched down will be 90mm wide by 100mm deep - does this seem a reasonable thickness for a workbench - it will be used for hand-tool work only.

Thanks!

 

[Scrit]

I was quoted £25 per cubic foot for beech, and £35 for oak - do these seem to be good prices?

Firstly I assume you're talking 1in thick here - thicker material generally costs more than the 1in stuff. Secondly are you talking about air dried (white) beech or steamed (pink) beech and is that American white oak or native? Finally are you talking about square edge, waney edge or 1 S/E? All these factors make for quite a difference in the price of the material you buy, wastage factor, etc. Answer those questions and I'll give you a price comparison point or two.

And finally, I know i've asked this before, but I can't seem to find the post in the search - how I do I work out the board foot from the cubic foot - i'll be buying 1.5" inch boards

OK, so it's ex-1-1/2in planks. A cubic foot is 12 x 12 x 12in and is the British measure, a board foot has a volume of 12 x 12 x 1in and is purely American and rarely if ever used in the trade in the UK. But if you want to calculate, the divisor (cubes to board feet) is 12 / 1.5 = 8.

Finally, my initial plans for the legs and rails will see me making them from a 3ply sandwich of the 1.5" boards.......
........The thicknesses I have sketched down will be 90mm wide by 100mm deep - does this seem a reasonable thickness for a workbench - it will be used for hand-tool work only

There's nothing wrong with the dimensions, although you could save money by using something like ex-4 x 3in R/S pine. The legs and underframe your top sit on don't need to be made of expensive hardwood and can instead be made from cheaper stuff.

Scrit

 

[ByronBlack]

Hi Scrit,

Thanks for the tips. The main reason why I was thinking of using the heavier beech for the underlegs, is that the bench itself will be quite small - no longer than 4' and about 2' deep so I didn't think it would be heavy enough if I used something like pine for the frame.. espeically as I won't be having drawers or cupboards in it to add weight, i'll have to have a think on that.

With regards to your first questions. The price was qouted for kiln-dried 1.5inch boards of beech which i'm assuming would be steamed if its not classed as air-dried? As for the edge, I didn't ask, so i'll assume it'll be waney edge.

The oak I believe was american and was also 1.5inch.

Cheers for the maths - this well help me cost it up from the cutting list, that way I can compare to the price that the yard gives me.

As for the top I was thinking of laminating 2" x 4" boards (beech) again, does that sound about right, or is it overkill? Could I use something like 1.5"x3" to save a bit of money? I'm not sure whether less but thicker boards, or more but thinner boards would be cheaper.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi BB,

I thought you'd made a bench before from 2x4 softwood?

Anyway I've made my frame from 2x4 stuff from wickes. It was quite heavy by the time I'd finished. With the ash top it doesn't move anywhere. I'm sure others have made smaller benches which still do the job well.

Don't forget, it's there to use, not to look at. If you're anything like me then it will look like a mess in no time. (Did I mention I cut through my plywood floor last weekend).

Dave

 

[Lord Nibbo]

Byron can I remind you of my beech bench and in particular to my reply to you which read....

How much did it cost!!! Well it's a bit of long story. If you look at the very first pic, the one showing the great stack of Beech, it's actually twice the amount I ordered. From a sketch on a *** packet I calculated I could do it using 10 boards 2" x 8" x 9ft which is 10cu ft, minus 15% waste. Atkins & Cripps quoted £26 + vat per cuft
So I supose you could say £260 + vat = £305.
But I actually paid £450 for 20 cuft, ie the second 10 cuft I had cheap


I made the base as well from that stack and I've still got one huge board left over :lol: So your quoted price seems OK but all the boards I ordered were 2" thick.

 

[ByronBlack]

Hi Dave,

I did make a bench of 2x4 pine before - but it's started to rack and wobble about and generally became a bit of pain to maintain and keep sturdy, hence the new bench. Although strictly, this will be a small additional bench to the MFT that I now use. Basically, it will be used solely for hand-tool use where the MFT isn't that suited, but is excellent for everything else.

Nibbo - funny you meantion that, i'm looking at the thread as I type this - I suddenly remembered yours and have started to re-read through it.. your top - the boards; are they 4" deep?

 

[Scrit]

Hi Byron

If those prices are square edge and home-grown/European then they don't seem too bad (but they are probably ex-VAT, so add another 17.5% on top). If those prices are waney edge I'd look around a bit more as your wastage is going to be much, much greater. I'd also avoid American oak as a few people I know have been having problems with flaky edges, honeycombing and the like recently. In any case the European stuff isn't bad on price.

As to weight a couple of concrete kerbstones can add weight, although you're hardly likely to need them with a heavy pine base. You can cure racking by using something like 7 x 2in stretchers through mortised and wedged. 4 x 2in just isn't rigid enough and either are stub or even foxed through tenons. What I would say is go for a fine-grained timber such as beech, sycamore or maple for the top rather than oak. Open grained timbers like oak will get grubby a lot faster and they are generally more prone to splintering, I'd say. As Dave says, though, the whole point of a workbench is to use it.

The top really needs to be only 1-1/2 to 2in thick over its' width providing the underframe is substantial enough to support it. BTW a quickie way to get a worktop might be to see if one of the local kitchen studios can do you a five foot offcut from a worktop (or maybe even IKEA do short pieces these days). Beech worktops are generally 600 to 650mm wide and 40mm thick and all one would need is a front apron adding - and is a lot less work than making your own from scratch. As an example of prices, Barncrest do a 3m length of 640 x 40mm beech worktop at £200 (£225 delivered) - enough to make two 5ft workbenches (at £112.50 each). I reckon that allowing for wastage a 5ft a 24in x 2in worktop would consume roughly 2.5 to 3 cubic feet of beech, or about £60 to £75 plus the labour of making the top....... I think that bears thinking about

Scrit

 

[Lord Nibbo]

I suddenly remembered yours and have started to re-read through it.. your top - the boards; are they 4" deep?

Yes it's 4" thick, all of it. As Scrit has already said it doesn't have to be all 4". But I made mine to sit on the base loose using tenons to keep it in position without any permanent fixings like screws or glue. I'll defy anyone to accidently move it though, I guess the top alone weighs in at about 250 lb possibly 300lb :lol:

 

[ByronBlack]

Scrit

I just back in touch with the yard, and confirmed the price - it's actually for square edge, and the price is the same for steamed or unsteamed - both kiln dried. They qouted me £44 per cube for english oak with a square edge, so that confirms that I should definitly go for beech.

You make an excellent point about the worktop and something I should look into, although I do want to try my hand at making the top, i've taken short-cuts with my previous workbenches and fancy the idea of doing this one myself (espeically after chickening out of doing the kitchen worktops). I'll have to think on this - appreciate the idea!

Assuming I go the pine route for the base, would I just use the standard stuff from a builders merchants, or is there a better quality pine species that I should instead - or even maybe something like poplar?

Nibbo - that's certainly a weighty top and maybe something that would be ideal for me as i'll be chopping mortices and doing a lot of planing on it.. i'll have to think on this.

 

[beech1948]

BB,
I started to make a bench about 2 yrs ago using softwood for all of it. I abandoned this when just before my father died he asked me to take over his bench. Its a typical european bench of about 85 yrs of age...massive front vice..opens about 15 "x 18" with a 4 1/2" thick jaw that is 10" deep..and a typical tail vice.

Its all from beech. Top is 84"X28" and is made from beech planks which are 6" wide and 4 1/2" thick. Think wheatabix x10 just to lift it. By the way I don't think that I've seen beech in these sizes anywhere today.

Base is also beech and still rigid. Sections are 3" square with 3" square strechers.

I've had some issues with getting the top flat because it was kept in a damp garage and then moved to my much drier workshop and the beech moved a lot as it dried. I ended up flattening it twice...pass the liniment please...but its still 4 3/8" thick after all that.

regards
Alan

 

[engineer one]

byron, i second scrit's idea about using a kitchen worktop, mine is an ikea beech jobbie, but a visit to your local shed might well give you the chance to buy an offie at less than the per metre price for a length. i managed to get two pieces about a metre longer than a normal length for less than half the retail :?

paul :wink:

 

[Scrit]

Byron

For the best joinery work I'd normally go for European redwood, preferably Firsts or Firsts and Seconds (or "FAS") as these have minimal knots and almost no shake on 3 faces. But does the job really warrant that? Providing the timber is straight and relatively shake free and there aren't too many knots you'd save money by asking for 5ths or Unsorteds and picking out the best you can find from the stack.

Scrit

 

[wizer]

My amatureish thoughts on this Byron.

The pine base will free up money for shiny tools (*cough*)

If you do need to weight it down then a couple of concrete blocks can be hidden nicely.

I don't need to tell you how bad 'standard' pine is (from B&Q and the like). Maybe not go for Firsts but I think it'd be worth Seconds for peace of mind. (i'm at the end of my tether with banana wood!)

I'd also go for the beech worktop idea.

I've never heard of Oak being used for a worktop, Beech seems to be the most popular.

Lastly can I be nosey and ask what timber supplier you are talking to? Purely curiosity.

 

[engineer one]

bb another thought if you want to make a laminated table top, start smaller, and make say a butcher block, that will give you a better idea of the work involved in doing the job.

you can of course buy a mobile butcher block for less than the parts will cost you , but it is a useful exercise in making. :roll: :twisted:

paul :wink:

 

[johnnyb]

my take on this is use my favourite... birch ply for the top. (50mm if you can find it) or even mdf the joy of assembly on a flat top is beautiful. design it from any timber you like but design storage and plenty of it...this will add weight(and storage of course). the lamination idea for the underframe joints sound good but could be tricky. trad workbenches are nice to look at but usualyy not flat and very very expensive.

 

[ByronBlack]

Scrit - redwood, would that be either sapele or meranti? Or something else in particular?

Wizer - B&Q pine hasn't touched my hands for a number of years now as I get all my standard stuff from a good local yard, like you i've had a few problems with their banana-wood for sometime.

As for my supplier, i'm using a local merchant in Brentwood called: EO Burton, they've been very helpful and patient with me so far and their prices seem ok too.

Worktop: After looking around on the net for sometime, i've come to the conclusion that I will be making my own because all the affordable tops I have found are all made with short-staves and finger-jointed and I would really prefer full length staves, as I intend to drill a fair number of dog-holes and I wouldn't want to compromise a finger joint. Ikea's tops seem very cheap, but then they are only 28mm thick - which for me would be too thin. So, i'll be making the top in three parts 8" wide each (to fit through my thicknesser) out of full length staves of 1/5" x 3" x 4'.

Jonnyb - I had a laminated worktop on my previous bench and I didn't really like it, when chopping mortises I felt there was a bit of spring their which made the job harder than it ought to be, i think a big heavy worktop will handle that kind of job better - and your right trad benches look lovely and would like some of that loveliness in my workshop to counter-act the dullness of the kitchen cabs and sundry other storage facilities.

Thanks for all the advice so far, i'm getting my plan nearly sorted, just need to decide on the joints for the base. I'll be leaving it open, but will add a bottom to the stretchers to form a kind of deep shelf, where i'll keep all the accessories and sharpening gear. I was considering using a contrasting colour for the base such as Iroko like DC's bench - looks lovely![/i]

 

[Scrit]

Byron

Redwood (or red deal or deals) and whitewood are trade terms for softwoods. Scandinavian redwood is regarded as a better quality timber for joinery (i.e. straighter grain, stronger, less defects) than the cheaper Russian or baltic whitewood sold by the likes of B'n'Screw. If you've only ever used the chaep and nasty banana pine that DIY outlets sell then using decent quality joinery stuff can be a bit of an eye opener

As to using iroko for a base I'll say just two things - the dust is fine, nasty, peppery, choking stuff (especially when routed) and it can be a b*gg*r to hand plane because the heartwood is sometimes so hard.

Scrit

 

[ByronBlack]

HI Scrit - thanks for the details on redwood there - I was getting confused because when I approached my local merchant for some redwood they sold me meranti - still a nice wood to work though. And your right, when I worked with decent timber (softwood) it was a stark contrast compared to banana-wood.

It's a shame Iroko is so hazardess as it looks really nice when finished well and is relatively cheap too - although maybe I could stain a more easier timber to get that rich colour - so many choices

As an aside, the merchant I want to use only deals with hardwood so no redwood from them and I get a discount if the lot is in beech - is beech stainable to a good standard?

 

[Anonymous]

HI Scrit - thanks for the details on redwood there - I was getting confused because when I approached my local merchant for some redwood they sold me meranti

strange timber merchant, :shock: , if they don't know what redwood is I would seriously question their timber knowledge.

 

[Scrit]

I think I'll second that comment, Senior, very strange indeed....... Obviously softwoods are just too downmarket for them.

As far as staining beech goes, Byron, it always end up looking like what it is. Beech. The ray flecks won't take stains very well at all and always seem to stand out is light "pimples" unless you do the same as chair manufacturers and hide it beneath a horrid, muddy, thick layer of tinted lacquer. If you're going to do tat why not go the whole hog and paint it - then you could use pine as it won't matter what's beneath the paint :wink:

Scrit