Basic tools: tenon/dovetail/planes

[EdK]

Hi,
Been trying to work out a basic set of tools to start buying.
I'm keen to buy once in an effort to buy wisely first time round and avoid the spiral of upgrading.

I am keen to buy some saws and some planes now (think I have the chisels sussed).

Saws
=======
I was looking online and in various catalogues and it seems that the easy to get hold of and often named saws seem to be either Lee & Roberts or Lie-Nielsen.

The dorchester LR ones seem good as do the LN ones.
Is there much difference between the LR and LN ones?

The LN ones come in more variation and I am not sure which sizes to get if I went down that route.
I am 6'2" if that has any bearing on the size of saw you get. I notice that the LN dovetail saw is 9". The LN tenon come in either 12" or 14" I think.

And cross cut or rip...

From what I understand from reading a few books dovetail are traditionally rip teeth and tenon cross cut.

THen there is a set of all three (9" dovetail/12" cross/12" rip tenons). Is this a good place to start or is it overkill?

Or move up to a 14" tenon?

And the 'small crosscut saw' and 'carcass saw' on CHT (classhandtools) - are these needed ?

Any advice on which saws to buy?
Keen to be able to maintain them too. Any recommendations on saw files? One for all saws or do you need to select/size a file for the saw?

Planes
========
I have a LN block plane (nice little bronze 102 or 103 I think - low angle one from last years splurge). and am keen to start buying more planes.

Was looking at LN and Veritas.
I've read a bit and am keen to buy a couple of planes.
I've been looking at a smoother and a jointer.

For the smoother I was thinking about an LN 4 but then read that David C. tunes his LN 5 1/2 as a smoother. So I am unsure about this choice of mine !

Initially I was thinking LN4 - LN6 - LN7 (yes, and rob a bank)

Later I was planning on getting a shoulder plane (LN 042 maybe ?)
Or am I better off getting a smoother, a jointer and a shoulder plane and looking for a doer-uper fore plane?
What is a good configuration to start with?

I'll worry about funding this later... just trying to get to an ideal starting point.
Cheers Ed

 

[dchenard]

Your list is quite LN-heavy, there are other options, you know :wink:

Saws: can't help you much here, I'm converted to Japanese saws. Used to own a LN DT saw, sold it, not the same league at all IMHO. For tenons, cheeks are a rip operation while the shoulders is crosscut, my LV rip dozuki wasn't the best cutting the tenon cheeks (but had no match when cutting DTs), for shoulders I'm still on the fence whether to go western or Japanese. A recent purchase will help me decide what to use for what.

If you really want to stick with western saws, Mike Wenzloff's saws are reputed to be the cat's meow. Haven't had the chance to try any so far, unfortunately...

Planes... David Charlesworth likes to use a 5 1/2 as a smoother (kinda like a panel plane), I agree, except that I like the Veritas Low Angle Jack (same size or close to) for that purpose, lower center of gravity, adaptability to other uses, ability to do end grain work with it, and wonderful feel overall. Can't go wrong with that one...

A #4 is never a bad choice, but if you get a #7 the #6 becomes somewhat superfluous unless set up differently so that you don't have to swap blades.

If I were to start over with planes, I would buy a cheap #5 jack for roughing out (with a substantial camber on the blade), a #7 (Veritas Bevel-Up Jointer is very good, and I'm sure LN and Clifton #7s are too, haven't tried the latter two) for jointing, and a smoother (in my case the Veritas LAJ). That will leave you (comparatively speaking) with enough dough for a shoulder plane, Veritas came on top in a review a couple years ago, but none of these three brands' offerings are bad.

HTH,

DC-C

 

[JackL]

Whilst I've always advocated buying the best you can afford, I worry that if you are proposing to spend over £100 per saw for LNs and then you ask about sharpening files - my blood runs cold!
If you have never sharpened and set a saw before, starting on a LN is not the way to go. If you are that intent on throwing money away, throw it this way!
I would suggest that you go to a car boot and buy a couple of old knacked saws, then buy a saw file and saw set and practise sharpening and setting those until they cut like a knife through butter.
My other suggestion would be to go on one of the many courses that are advertised in all of the woodwork mags and get some professional guidance on sharpening not only saws, but planes and chisels as well. In this way you will be protecting your very considerable investment in LN tools.

 

[bugbear]

Saws
=======
I was looking online and in various catalogues and it seems that the easy to get hold of and often named saws seem to be either Lee & Roberts or Lie-Nielsen.

Adria are also extremely good, Wenzloff are golden.

I would start with ONE joint cutting saw; I would suggest a 12" cross cut back saw of good quality.

A saw of the league you mention, of this type will make a good job of cutting tenon shoulders, tenon cheeks, and dovetails.

For each of these tasks, there is (indeed) an ultimate saw, but then (if you like collecting saws) one could argue that you need a DIFFERENT dovetail saw for each wood, since hardness and grain structure vary, and so on for each cut.

This is madness (or a nice hobby, depending on POV).

You will also need/want a utility grade back saw, for simple stock preparation, saving your joint cutting saw for when it's needed.

I also find a fine-toothed hand saw most helpful (e.g. I have a Tyzack, 11 TPI, around 22" IIRC)

Sharpening saws is "Interesting"; I normally use the analogy of knitting; knitting a stitch is easy, and so is filing a tooth; knitting a nice garment is harder, and so is filing a saw.

http://www.geocities.com/plybench/saw_sharpen.html

BugBear

 

[pam niedermayer]

I strongly recommend the LN LA Jack as your first plane. It's extremely flexible functionally (performs joining through smoothing) and it works right out of the box. Many whose judgement I trust say the LV LA Jack is even better. So one or the other.

On saws, I have nothing much to say about a first kit of western saws, except that I started with a 14" Tyzack back saw, which worked very well (OK, I'll admit that I actually started with whatever junk saw my father had, but I was pre-conscious age 11 and didn't have money to buy anything). I use Japanese now and recommend a ryoba (one side cross, the other rip) of about 240 mm as your only needed saw for a bit.

On chisels, a small set of 2 Cherries, Hirsch, Ashley Iles, or a bunch picked up at car boot sales. Go for bevel edged and sided bench chisels to start. Check out Dieter's for a sample set of 6 Two Cherries (get the unpolished ones) at http://www.fine-tools.com/stemmb.htm

Then you'll need stones and/or sandpaper for sharpening. I'll hold off here for a bit.

Pam[/u]

 

[bugbear]

Check out Dieter's for a sample set of 6 Two Cherries (get the unpolished ones) at http://www.fine-tools.com/stemmb.htm

When deciding, note that Dieter adds postage and VAT to the indicated prices.

BugBear

 

[Adam]

Check out Dieter's for a sample set of 6 Two Cherries (get the unpolished ones) at http://www.fine-tools.com/stemmb.htm

When deciding, note that Dieter adds postage and VAT to the indicated prices.

BugBear

I have the polished ones from Axminster, and, if I'm honest, have never suffered even so much as a wisp of difficulty due to the slight radius on the edges. (after all in must be a nats whisker of a diameter) I find they stay sharp, and have had plenty of use. In all honesty, have you ever come across a situation where it matters (I mean it has a measurable effect that had to be corrected somehow)? I've made all sorts of furniture / items with mine and the margin of error on the angle you hold it, must massively outweigh even being able to notice the effect of a small radius on an edge.

Adam

 

[MrJay]

My other suggestion would be to go on one of the many courses that are advertised in all of the woodwork mags and get some professional guidance on sharpening not only saws, but planes and chisels as well. In this way you will be protecting your very considerable investment in LN tools.

I'm in full agreement. There's no point at all investing in the shinys without the means and learned skill to look after and then use them to proper effect. Been there, done that (still doing it sometimes), felt rather silly afterwards.

 

[pam niedermayer]

[...
I have the polished ones from Axminster, and, if I'm honest, have never suffered even so much as a wisp of difficulty due to the slight radius on the edges. (after all in must be a nats whisker of a diameter) I find they stay sharp, and have had plenty of use. ...

Nah, no problems with the polishing, although the coating they were wrapped with was a bit tedious. I'd just rather not fool with it, so if both polished and un are available, I'd get the un if buying now.

Pam

 

[Paul Kierstead]

I'm still on the fence whether to go western or Japanese.

Oddly enough, that is one of my favorite uses for Japanese saws! :lol:

 

[EdK]

Thanks for all your considered replies - that's what I love about this forum, excellent advice and very active.

So what I can say about my original question (having read all the replies) is that my original enthusiasm is definitely naive ! It needs tempering with a bit of realism and thought along with some practical guided experience (a course and more practice)...

Planes, chisels and saws... hmmm. Basically what I am after is a decent foundation of tools. I think I set the bar too high with most of what I asked about. The saws for a start. I am now more aware of the range available (Wenzloff, LN, Adria, Lee Roberts, Thomas Flinn etc) and need to find the correct level for me.

I was initially tempted by the Japanese saws but am not keen on a saw where I thow the blade away or can't sharpen myself. Perhaps I'll buy one anyway to try - at least then I'll have an opinion about them from firsthand experience.

I'm still keen to buy an western handsaw as I think that this is a good place to start. And think I will go with Bugbear's recommendation of a 12" tenon crosscut (TPI ?? - not Wenzloff but not B&Q special either - any recommendations inbetween??).

Chisels...
I got a quote from CHT of £148 for a set of 5 LN's (Guernsey is VAT free - cheaper tools but we get it in the neck for wood prices...). I think that I can afford this and this seems to be a very good place to start. I looked at the AI 6 and 12 piece sets (about £81 and £165) but like the LN's better (socketed/A2 steel/look less fussy).
Will think about getting 2 mortise chisels too and then later on think about the wider bevel edge ones.

Planes...
This is the area that confuses me the most ! So many different types. SO maybe go with just buying one this time. Probably the LAJ of whatever denomination. Guess I'll get a number 4 smoother another time. And then a shoulder....and then a jointer...

Anyway, this is the revised list:
12" crosscut saw.
5 x LN bevel edge chisels
2 x LN mortise chisels
LAJ (LN or LV)

Think that that is more sensible and won't have to auction the kidney after all.

(Jobs to do immediately: staircase/6 internal doors/cupboards. Jobs later on table/chairs/kitchen... an boxes seem popular so might have a go with that too )

@dchenard : yes, too LN heavy...Will check out Japanese saws. Just dont like the replaceable blades. Will def consider the LV shoulder - was that medium or large? Medium looks good to me.

@JackL - don't worry if I was to sharpen a good saw I'd practice like mad first on my dad's saws They are all blunt as **** so could do with a tune. And yes a course has been on the books, just a bit busy at the moment with a spot of DIY.

@bugbear - good advice on the one 12" saw. Thanks - hard to see the wood for the trees sometimes.

@pam - LAJ it is then. Not keen on the Kirsch chisels, the AI seem good but think I will go for the 5 x LN set to get me started. Got about 4 waterstones already (for netsuke chisels) mostly King up to 6000 but might get a new 8000 grit one soon.

@MrJay - thanks - always open for advice even if it does make me look silly ! I'm here to learn.

 

[dchenard]

@dchenard : yes, too LN heavy...Will check out Japanese saws. Just dont like the replaceable blades. Will def consider the LV shoulder - was that medium or large? Medium looks good to me.

Both are good for tenon shoulders, the large is better for tenons cheeks because of its width, but the medium allows you to clean dadoes (if wider than 11/16"), and is less bulky to handle. I bought the medium one some years ago, if I were to do it again I'd probably go for the large one, now that I have a router plane that can clean dadoes (among other things).

As far as Japanese saws go, don't buy the cheapest one, it will put you off Japanese saws altogether, which would be a shame. This saw:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Z-Sa ... -19709.htm

is a very good all-around saw, with this one you will get a taste of what a Japanese saw can do. It's not the best saw for ripping, but for thin rips like dovetails it is quite acceptable. Also, keep in mind that while this kind of saw has a throwaway blade, it stays sharp a long time since the teeth are so hard (allegedly Rc 70).

DC-C

 

[bugbear]

(Jobs to do immediately: staircase/6 internal doors/cupboards. Jobs later on table/chairs/kitchen... an boxes seem popular so might have a go with that too )

Holy shoot (euphemism); you could have TOLD us the range of work earlier.

It might juu...ust have a bearing.

BugBear

 

[EdK]

Thanks for all the help.
Final(ish) list:
5 x LN bevel edge chisels with toolroll
1 x 1" BE LN chisel
1 x Japanese saw (dozuki-me 240mm as advised)
1 x LAJ....

So LAJ... toss up between LN and Veritas... any strong opinions one way or another?

Was planning on getting stuff from classic hand tools.
Is there an equivalent to the mentioned japanese saw from CHT?

Will wait on the 12" cross cut western saw until I have read about them a bit more and have a better understanding.
Same for shoulder plane (but am leaning towards a large Veritas shoulder plane - just read Alf's review).

Nearest job is having a go at making a staircase from ash....
Many thanks
Ed

 

[bugbear]

1 x LAJ....

So LAJ... toss up between LN and Veritas... any strong opinions one way or another?

The Veritas shares a blade with (some) other planes in the veritas range, and also has a lateral adjuster. The LN/LV prices are almost identical.

BugBear