Balancing Material - Forbo Furniture Linoleum

[gravitas41]

Hi Folks

I am a novice woodworker with a long list of projects that will require the use of Forbo Desk Top Linoleum on a ply backing - the Forbo is a 3mm linoleum product that comes in roll form and is will be glued to the ply.

The first project that I am going to undertake is a large coffee table - apron 1.6m x 0.8m with a Forbo top and I have a technical question that I haven't been able to find an answer to -

The Forbo installation Guidance Note Says that I should use a backing material to counterbalance the panel - a bit like a balancing veneer...

It suggest ideally using the same material - (which is pretty expensive) - but it goes on to say that
"A variety of materials can be used as backing if the Desk Top or flooring material is not being used on both surfaces but as individual installations will vary so much the safest solution for any surface considered to present a risk is to do a trial first"

SO MY QUESTIONS ARE "

Does anyone have any experience of this type of material in the real world and -- if so please can you advise on whether an alternative backing material would work and if so what might be suitable?

For Clarification - I am thinking of using 18mm Birch Ply backing, and expect to fix the table top to a subframe, although the edges will not be directly supported within 200mm of the edge (bit of a cantilever)

I also intend to use this for some cabinet doors - where the backing question will apply in a completely 'unsupported' way.

Any advice would be welcome...

 

[scholar]

I don't know - presumably something that will behave like linoleum - would some wood veneer on the underside do this?

I had not seen this particular application for linoleum, but might well consider it for the top of a reproduction mid-century oak desk I have planned - the original had vinyl leather, but I really like the idea of the linoleum. Hopefully you will have solved the question for me by the time I get round to it!

Cheers

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Unfortunately Forbo don't seem to offer (I looked) a cheaper backing linoleum specifically for that purpose that you could use, so their only option is to use the same lino for both the show face and back face, which will cost whatever it has to cost. I looked at their website and you could get enough to do what you're proposing for approximately £110 - £120.

An alternative would be to use a plain(ish) floor vinyl which typically comes in thicknesses between about 2 - 3 mm compared to the 2 mm thick lino you're planning to use for the show face. But it might be cheaper, especially if you can find an end-of-roll offcut that a floor covering dealer is willing to sell at a reduced price. I've done exactly this to cover the floors of small rooms where I could live with a less than ideal colour and pattern in the vinyl.

If the top is free floating or minimally supported underneath you will need a backing lino or vinyl to prevent or reduce warp. On the other hand if the top panel has plenty of supporting under structure, e.g., rails plus intermediate cross rails you would almost certainly be able to apply your lino to just the show face. Slainte.

 

[Fitzroy]

Hi Folks

I am a novice woodworker with a long list of projects that will require the use of Forbo Desk Top Linoleum on a ply backing - the Forbo is a 3mm linoleum product that comes in roll form and is will be glued to the ply.

The first project that I am going to undertake is a large coffee table - apron 1.6m x 0.8m with a Forbo top and I have a technical question that I haven't been able to find an answer to -

The Forbo installation Guidance Note Says that I should use a backing material to counterbalance the panel - a bit like a balancing veneer...

It suggest ideally using the same material - (which is pretty expensive) - but it goes on to say that
"A variety of materials can be used as backing if the Desk Top or flooring material is not being used on both surfaces but as individual installations will vary so much the safest solution for any surface considered to present a risk is to do a trial first"

SO MY QUESTIONS ARE "

Does anyone have any experience of this type of material in the real world and -- if so please can you advise on whether an alternative backing material would work and if so what might be suitable?

For Clarification - I am thinking of using 18mm Birch Ply backing, and expect to fix the table top to a subframe, although the edges will not be directly supported within 200mm of the edge (bit of a cantilever)

I also intend to use this for some cabinet doors - where the backing question will apply in a completely 'unsupported' way.

Any advice would be welcome...

What a fascinating material, great find that I'll add to my 'to use' list, would love to see some photos as the project takes shape. On a the table I'd likely be happy not to balance the underside as the frame would keep it flat, i would however test a 200mm overhang in 19mm ply to make sure I was happy that the edge was strong enough for someone to sit on or stand on to change a light bulb, you know someone will at sometime! i find unsupported panels warp on me no matter what i bloomin' do so i'd be doing some prototyping for sure.

 

[Tris]

Artists lino rolls would cover the area you mention and are 3.2mm, cost around £90 or so. Jackson's art supplies have a good turnover so it shouldn't be brittle. Whether it is compatible with your chosen material I don't know, it is a traditional Hessian backed type

 

[Kev D]

Manor Wood on YouTube has videos of him using this product on furniture

 

[gravitas41]

What a fascinating material, great find that I'll add to my 'to use' list, would love to see some photos as the project takes shape. On a the table I'd likely be happy not to balance the underside as the frame would keep it flat, i would however test a 200mm overhang in 19mm ply to make sure I was happy that the edge was strong enough for someone to sit on or stand on to change a light bulb, you know someone will at sometime! i find unsupported panels warp on me no matter what i bloomin' do so i'd be doing some prototyping for sure.

Good idea to test this -thx

 

[gravitas41]

Artists lino rolls would cover the area you mention and are 3.2mm, cost around £90 or so. Jackson's art supplies have a good turnover so it shouldn't be brittle. Whether it is compatible with your chosen material I don't know, it is a traditional Hessian backed type

Thx will see what I can find on this.

 

[gravitas41]

Unfortunately Forbo don't seem to offer (I looked) a cheaper backing linoleum specifically for that purpose that you could use, so their only option is to use the same lino for both the show face and back face, which will cost whatever it has to cost. I looked at their website and you could get enough to do what you're proposing for approximately £110 - £120.

An alternative would be to use a plain(ish) floor vinyl which typically comes in thicknesses between about 2 - 3 mm compared to the 2 mm thick lino you're planning to use for the show face. But it might be cheaper, especially if you can find an end-of-roll offcut that a floor covering dealer is willing to sell at a reduced price. I've done exactly this to cover the floors of small rooms where I could live with a less than ideal colour and pattern in the vinyl.

If the top is free floating or minimally supported underneath you will need a backing lino or vinyl to prevent or reduce warp. On the other hand if the top panel has plenty of supporting under structure, e.g., rails plus intermediate cross rails you would almost certainly be able to apply your lino to just the show face. Slainte.

Thx for yr comments / help I’ll see if I can find something suitable

 

[Bod]

My initial thought, is how will a 3mm cover bend an 18mm thick plywood base.
It will need some really super duper glue, indeed would the ply delaminate first, before bending?
Backing material under a thin base (less than 6mm) would be necessary.

Bod

 

[gravitas41]

Manor Wood on YouTube has videos of him using this product on furniture

Seen, but I havent seen one where he is using a backing though.. but he is using on doubled up ply… 40mm ish

 

[gravitas41]

My initial thought, is how will a 3mm cover bend an 18mm thick plywood base.
It will need some really super duper glue, indeed would the ply delaminate first, before bending?
Backing material under a thin base (less than 6mm) would be necessary.

Bod

I guess that is my thinking / hope - but was hoping someone has tried it and knows.. next step is live testing!….

 

[Sgian Dubh]

... but was hoping someone has tried it and knows.. next step is live testing!….

What you're planning to do is something I used to undertake several times a week for more than a year i.e., lino, or similar materials, applied to worksurfaces, so my suggestions were based on experience. Hopefully that provides you with some reassurance. We used contact cement to attach both the show face and the backer, but you could use other adhesives, especially if you have available any one of a hydraulic press, bag press, or vac bag, all either unheated or heated. I suspect you may not have access to the kit just identified. Slainte.

 

[gravitas41]

What you're planning to do is something I used to undertake several times a week for more than a year i.e., lino, or similar materials, applied to worksurfaces, so my suggestions were based on experience. Hopefully that provides you with some reassurance. We used contact cement to attach both the show face and the backer, but you could use other adhesives, especially if you have available any one of a hydraulic press, bag press, or vac bag, all either unheated or heated. I suspect you may not have access to the kit just identified. Slainte.

Thx again for this.
Highly value your knowledge and you taking the time to help!
To follow up a bit - I have also seen that there is a company in Germany called Faust Linoleum that work with Lino and ply , they detail their production process and appear to use a paper ‘balancing material’ -
I have searched online but can’t find any more resources on this, as to what type of paper they use - it looks like a heavy weight grey paper … they make large counter tops so obvs up to the job… I don’t suppose you have come across this on your woodworking travels Sgian?

I don’t have access to a press I was hoping that some sheets of ply and some weights would do the job…. Any thoughts on whether that will work appreciated … I am planning on rolling out the surface smooth with a hard roller… I j don’t have any experience of how a press would improve the finish??

 

[Sgian Dubh]

To follow up a bit - I have also seen that there is a company in Germany called Faust Linoleum that work with Lino and ply , they detail their production process and appear to use a paper ‘balancing material’ -
I have searched online but can’t find any more resources on this, as to what type of paper they use -

It's most likely they're using a product similar to the CL20 Backing Laminate shown at the link.

I don’t have access to a press I was hoping that some sheets of ply and some weights would do the job…. Any thoughts on whether that will work appreciated … I am planning on rolling out the surface smooth with a hard roller… I j don’t have any experience of how a press would improve the finish??

You would normally use a hydraulic or vacuum press or vac bag with adhesives such as urea formaldehyde or PVA. Lacking those bits of kit means that most makers turn to contact adhesive which is spread on both surfaces to be joined and allowed to become dry to the touch. After that a series of sticks of MDF, ply, or whatever is handy, ~ 150 - 200 mm longer than the short span of the panel and perhaps roughly 30 - 50 wide X 12 - 25 mm thick are laid across the glued panel 200 - 300 mm apart. The glued surface of the lino or high pressure laminate is laid on top of the sticks and positioned so that all the edges of the panel are covered. After that sticks are removed one at a time, starting at one end (usually), and the laminate or lino pressed down so that the two glued surfaces make contact, and the maker ensures no bubbles form as the covering material is gradually lowered on to the panel surface as each stick, or group of sticks are removed. Hand held laminate rollers are frequently used to make sure the surface covering is firmly stuck and bubble free. If it's all gone wrong by this point, hopefully not, then it's a case of strip off the covering material and start again.

Not mentioned before, but essential, is that the decorative surface material is cut larger than the base panel, anything from about 20 mm upwards. So, for example, if one dimension of the base panel is 800 mm the covering material will be cut about 820 mm or more. Lastly, after bonding of the decorative material, its overhang is trimmed flush with the edge of the base panel; most people use a router with a bearing guided flush trimming bit for this task, plus maybe a file for a bit further refinement in some circumstances. Slainte.

 

[Stevekane]

I guess that is my thinking / hope - but was hoping someone has tried it and knows.. next step is live testing!….

I guess the worry is that the Lino wont move but the backing plywood could?

 

[gravitas41]

It's most likely they're using a product similar to the CL20 Backing Laminate shown at the link.

You would normally use a hydraulic or vacuum press or vac bag with adhesives such as urea formaldehyde or PVA. Lacking those bits of kit means that most makers turn to contact adhesive which is spread on both surfaces to be joined and allowed to become dry to the touch. After that a series of sticks of MDF, ply, or whatever is handy, ~ 150 - 200 mm longer than the short span of the panel and perhaps roughly 30 - 50 wide X 12 - 25 mm thick are laid across the glued panel 200 - 300 mm apart. The glued surface of the lino or high pressure laminate is laid on top of the sticks and positioned so that all the edges of the panel are covered. After that sticks are removed one at a time, starting at one end (usually), and the laminate or lino pressed down so that the two glued surfaces make contact, and the maker ensures no bubbles form as the covering material is gradually lowered on to the panel surface as each stick, or group of sticks are removed. Hand held laminate rollers are frequently used to make sure the surface covering is firmly stuck and bubble free. If it's all gone wrong by this point, hopefully not, then it's a case of strip off the covering material and start again.

Not mentioned before, but essential, is that the decorative surface material is cut larger than the base panel, anything from about 20 mm upwards. So, for example, if one dimension of the base panel is 800 mm the covering material will be cut about 820 mm or more. Lastly, after bonding of the decorative material, its overhang is trimmed flush with the edge of the base panel; most people use a router with a bearing guided flush trimming bit for this task, plus maybe a file for a bit further refinement in some circumstances. Slainte.

Sgian - you have been a mine of information- thank you for taking the time to share your expertise. Really really helpful.

 

[recipio]

I have used 8x4 sheets of veneer in the past ordered from Oakwood veneers in the US. If vacuum facilities are not available they advise using a gel type contact adhesive put on with a short nap roller. This avoids the ' lumpy bits' you get with standard contact cement. With 18 mm ply as the base I'd imagine any counter balancing material will work as it is the glue line that prevents cupping. Something like 3 mm ply or MDF should work if you don't have veneer to hand. ?

 

[__jvc26]

Interesting material. I think this video is from the manufacturer and offers a number of possible backing materials. I haven’t used myself but will add to the list — thanks for the heads up!

 

[gravitas41]

Interesting material. I think this video is from the manufacturer and offers a number of possible backing materials. I haven’t used myself but will add to the list — thanks for the heads up!

Brilliant.. not sure why I couldn’t find that… thx for pointing it out.