Are we being ripped off by tool retailers?

[Sideways]

What, pray, is an imperial tooth count?

Would it be something like 25 1/16 teeth on the gear?

Does the metric version have a sensible number like 24.75 teeth?

Wooly terminology, my bad. I'm a novice at gears.
I'm still trying to identify the gear that I need but it's a 17 tooth, 10" diametral pitch, imperial not ISO metric standard gear, pressure angle still to be determined.
Figuring these out tends to require photograph or scan, enlarged, and a bit of head scratching.
First you have to unpin the gear from the crowned pulley so that you can get to an undamaged area of the teeth to measure them....

 

[Jester129]

Have a look on UK and USA Amazon for the Stanley Bailey 60.5 plane for yourselves, you will be gobsmacked! Incredible!

 

[Spectric]

The question to ask is are you getting value for money, so now you have to define value. Value means different things to different people but the two most important criteria are functionality and lifecycle which are used a lot in engineering to justify cost. Something can be good value even if it is cheap but is only needed for a one off job so not worth buying top quality providing it does the job ! There are other factors which you can also include, not neccessarily a direct cost but they still add value and these are how well a company handles customers to ensure a good experience and how far they are willing to go to meet these expectations.

So are we being ripped off by tool retailers, in some cases we probably are but don't overlook their cost involved in running the business and because we do not manufacture much in the UK there are all sorts of import duties and tax not to mention the shipping. Even when goods are made in the Uk we have high labour cost and again they have overheads so maybe not a simple yes or no.

So some products are known for there quality and also for being top dollar like Woodpeckers and Jessem but they come all the way from the states so incurr added cost, are they value for money ? Festool is another expensive brand which with some tools being a monopoly they can charge what they like but can you say there products are value for money, this might come down to them being only of value to a select few who need specific features otherwise you can get the same functionality from other brands so are not of such value to them. What about home produced products like from Benchdogs, no import duties but high capital expenditure and labour cost but in my opinion they do deliver value and are also customer focused whilst being innovative and filling gaps in the market for products that deliver better functionality than that currently available. Others you might view with greater suspicion, the ones that seem to just import and markup with there own logo, also some of the products often seem familiar in that you have seen them elsewhere in a different costume.

For me the first thing I go for are retailers with a good reputation and that you can feel confidence in, those that if you have an issue will go out of there way to resolve it or give a no quibble refund and you feel that you are getting a fair deal without being fleeced.

We have to be careful what we wish for, get a "bargain" on line or support an established bricks and mortar shop,

That is why we have no retail left in our high streets, not only about getting a bargain but for many it is just a case of being lazy and not having to go somewhere to buy it . It is great to get a bargain but not if it is a gamble where you get one or two good products whilst the rest are shiete and you are stuck with them because you are not a customer but just an invoice number.

Here Uk companies that stand out are Benchdogs, Woodworkers workshop, Anglia tool centre, Toolstop, Fc tools and there are many others I am sure you can name.

Rumour alert, Axminster are taking on main dealer for Laguna,

For how long, they used to do Jet products but no longer.

 

[stuart little]

That's more than just a washer. It's not flat and it's precision made. Leigh kit is made to a high standard, not just cheap knock out far east kit.
Leigh charge $37 cn = £21 for that item in their home territory. Axminster charge £20 + VAT, so it's actually cheaper here!
You only pay Axminster postage on small orders and not at all if you visit their shops.
Frankly £5 postage is pretty reasonable once you factor in the cost of packing materials, courier/mail charges, not to mention someone's time to find, label and pack it.

Then compare it with the cost of travelling to collect.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

That is why we have no retail left in our high streets, not only about getting a bargain but for many it is just a case of being lazy and not having to go somewhere to buy it .

The rot started many years ago when merchants (especially builders' merchants around here) decided it was more economic not to carry stock. We'd go to buy something only to be told we can get it in a week Thursday or whatever. We could easily waste a few working hours going from merchant to merchant trying to find something (and you had to remember what time they all shut for lunch). Even 30 years ago it would only take two or three days to get it from Screwfix or somewhere. Price also creeps in - I remember 30 years ago asking the price of a box of 200 small screws - it was £4.32. I said we'd paid 99p from Screwfix (they were the same brand). The owner said he couldn't buy them for that and I pointed out the 99p was for 1200 not 200. I'd used 1800 of them, that's one hell of a difference in cost.
I had this debate before - I looked at the last ten items I'd bought on line - seven of them I couldn't have bought locally had I chosen to.

 

[Vulcan]

About 50 years ago I was paying around *£17 for a pair of Levi’s and £5 for a white T shirt. Levi’s may be in the £80 to £120 range these days (but the quality isn’t as good) but I bought some nice looking jeans from Sainsburys a while back for £15 and a T shirt was still a fiver.

* There was an article in the Daily Mirror at the time that had a cost breakdown for a £17 pair of Levi’s jeans. I can’t remember all the details but I do remember the cost to make them was 17p.

 

[CaptainBudget]

I had this debate before - I looked at the last ten items I'd bought on line - seven of them I couldn't have bought locally had I chosen to.

Absolutely, and it's not just woodworking, etc.

I also do homebrew and you cannot buy locally if you want to (especially now Wilkos has gone); literally everything has to be bought online from specialist retailers (unless you live locally to them), and the hardware is all imported far-eastern products.

I hate buying from Amazon, and will generally do what I can to avoid doinig so. Unfortunately quite a lot of the general household bits & bats we buy we can't source locally anymore, so if it doesn't get picked up in the weekly shop it's usually Amazon. Most of the high street and retail park shops seem to just sell ill-fitting plastic clothes (don't get me started...), food, consumer electronics (that we don't normally need) and flat-pack furniture (that again we don't need/use). Literally every item I have bought this year on Amazon has been something I would/could not source locally, and 99% of what is in local shops is stuff I have no interest in buying (or I do but definitely can't afford...)

I don't really have a dog in the tool fight though as most of what I use is vintage hand tools, and use traditional method where possible because that's what interests me. I think the last one I bought new was a tenon saw, and that was made locally and (I think) bought direct...

 

[Delaney]

My big gripe and why I’m thinking about actually selling my machine, is the cost of replacement bags for my vacuum.

I bought a Starmix dust extractor from Ardvarch near South Hampton (if I remember) after much research. I even called the head office in Germany to ask about their extractor. They confirmed that they manufactured it and that it is also the same as the Mafell one, which is a rebadged Starmix.

The Starmix was somewhat cheaper as it doesn't have the Mafell sticker on (big fan of Mafell tools mind you) and so I bought it. The bags were about £20 for 5 @ 35ltr. I noticed as the Mafell one became more prevalent online, that resellers were selling the same bags (stampted Mafell) for £40-£50 for 5!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I knew there was no justification for this and becmae concered that this utter price gouging would soon effect me.

Some time went on and I bought some more bags from Ardvarch at the same price of around £20. I asked them why they still sell them for £20 and they said for the most part “we don't rip off our customers”.

Anywho, a year later and now you cannot buy the Starmix bags for under £45 for 5.

I knew this was always going to happen. I’m going to contact Starmtix and complain and tell them that their affiliation with Mafell is hurting their core customers. Starmix is not a luxury tool brand and should keep their components and bags separate from their affiliation with Mafell.
In this case, Mafell are ripping off their customers as they don't make the extractor or bags and before they came along, both were cheaper.

 

[Delaney]

The question to ask is are you getting value for money, so now you have to define value. Value means different things to different people but the two most important criteria are functionality and lifecycle which are used a lot in engineering to justify cost. Something can be good value even if it is cheap but is only needed for a one off job so not worth buying top quality providing it does the job ! There are other factors which you can also include, not neccessarily a direct cost but they still add value and these are how well a company handles customers to ensure a good experience and how far they are willing to go to meet these expectations.

So are we being ripped off by tool retailers, in some cases we probably are but don't overlook their cost involved in running the business and because we do not manufacture much in the UK there are all sorts of import duties and tax not to mention the shipping. Even when goods are made in the Uk we have high labour cost and again they have overheads so maybe not a simple yes or no.

So some products are known for there quality and also for being top dollar like Woodpeckers and Jessem but they come all the way from the states so incurr added cost, are they value for money ? Festool is another expensive brand which with some tools being a monopoly they can charge what they like but can you say there products are value for money, this might come down to them being only of value to a select few who need specific features otherwise you can get the same functionality from other brands so are not of such value to them. What about home produced products like from Benchdogs, no import duties but high capital expenditure and labour cost but in my opinion they do deliver value and are also customer focused whilst being innovative and filling gaps in the market for products that deliver better functionality than that currently available. Others you might view with greater suspicion, the ones that seem to just import and markup with there own logo, also some of the products often seem familiar in that you have seen them elsewhere in a different costume.

For me the first thing I go for are retailers with a good reputation and that you can feel confidence in, those that if you have an issue will go out of there way to resolve it or give a no quibble refund and you feel that you are getting a fair deal without being fleeced.


That is why we have no retail left in our high streets, not only about getting a bargain but for many it is just a case of being lazy and not having to go somewhere to buy it . It is great to get a bargain but not if it is a gamble where you get one or two good products whilst the rest are shiete and you are stuck with them because you are not a customer but just an invoice number.

Here Uk companies that stand out are Benchdogs, Woodworkers workshop, Anglia tool centre, Toolstop, Fc tools and there are many others I am sure you can name.


For how long, they used to do Jet products but no longer.

I've got in trouble here before for badmouthing Axminster.
I would say that Axminster are a great shop but they do rip off their customers (imo). They make claims about their tools that do no stand up. You can tell so by the reviews of their products. They drop ship incredibly crude and cheaply made asian machines. Their markup is also over 50 -70%
The quality of their ‘engineer’ pillar drill is shockingly bad.

Another way they fall down is as follows. They sell engineers squares but they don't sell the grade 1 or (a), which woudl be very expensive. Instead they sell cheap asian made ones that aren't very accurate. This casues annoyance in the reviews and if Axminster woudl just say “these aren’t the most accurate ones you can buy but they are affordable” people would be better informed but Axminster aren't that upfront with their customers.

They shoudl say “we’re cheap and cheerful and get the job done” but if you watch their videos, they come across like their stuff is perfect.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

About 50 years ago I was paying around *£17 for a pair of Levi’s and £5 for a white T shirt. Levi’s may be in the £80 to £120 range these days (but the quality isn’t as good) but I bought some nice looking jeans from Sainsburys a while back for £15 and a T shirt was still a fiver.

* There was an article in the Daily Mirror at the time that had a cost breakdown for a £17 pair of Levi’s jeans. I can’t remember all the details but I do remember the cost to make them was 17p.

About 35 years ago I hurt my foot badly, my ankle seized solid for several weeks. I had a plastercast for a while and had to split some jeans to go over it. I was paying about £50 a pair for 501s at the time and two pairs for tenner for unbranded jeans at the market for work. I nicked the stitching on the 501s and they opened up right up the seam - I tried with the fiver a pair ones and had unpick every stitch, they were so much better made. I never bought 501s again.

 

[Spectric]

two pairs for tenner for unbranded jeans at the market for work

That is sometimes an issue where you think a certain branded product is going to be better made but in reality you are not buying the product but the brand name. Some other manufacturers get away with a past reputation that is no longer there, German cars like VW and Mercedes are just not quality products anymore but try to sell on the basis they once were.

I've got in trouble here before for badmouthing Axminster

Axminster is probably trying to hold a wide range of products that they want to suit everyones requirements and not succeeding. If I were them I would drop the really bottom end products and leave them to another supplier. For example planner / thicknessers, reduce the product range and and now sell a much better product at just a little more than the bottom end one you have discontinued which should be feasable and customers will buy it. As for engineers squares, they are probably ok for the average woodworker but for precision metalworking there are better outlets. For a decent square for woodworking you can look at Woodpeckers products from the Woodworkers Workshop or Benchdogs do a range.

 

[Peter Sefton]

If anyone is looking for a top quality engineers square check out our Verum, not as sexy as some of the other brands we offer but dam good and accurate at a reasonable price point.

https://woodworkersworkshop.co.uk/verum/?sort=bestselling

Cheers

Peter

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Strangely, I have several good squares - M&W, Starrett - but only one is marked with a B.S. number. I paid £2 for it at a market, it's a Draper.

 

[Spectric]

And some proof that you don't always get the best prices from the big stores .

Woodworkers workshop

compared to B&Q, part of Kingfisher group who also own Screwfix.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

They all make money somewhere - be aware that for every really good deal you see there'll be be bummer somewhere else.

 

[J-G]

Wooly terminology, my bad. I'm a novice at gears.
I'm still trying to identify the gear that I need but it's a 17 tooth, 10" diametral pitch, imperial not ISO metric standard gear, pressure angle still to be determined.
Figuring these out tends to require photograph or scan, enlarged, and a bit of head scratching.
First you have to unpin the gear from the crowned pulley so that you can get to an undamaged area of the teeth to measure them....

Firstly - [10" diametral pitch] doesn't make sense. You may of course mean that the Pitch Diameter is 10" - - - if that IS the case then the DP is 1.7, If the OD is 10" then the DP is 1.9 but I'll ignore that thought for now.

The OD would be 11.176", the Root 8.529". Making certain 'standard' assumptions (tooth-gap 48/52%), the tooth thickness @ PCD = 0.886". if the tooth-gap is a straight 50/50 then the thickness @ PCD would be 0.923"

The attached .PDFs (one at 20°PA & one at 14½°) show the tooth form with the 48/52 configuration - the scale is metric so it shows the tooth thickness as 22.501mm or - since it is at 5:1 - 112.5mm

These figures are naturally theoretical, the actual tooth form I would expect to be close but due to manufacturing tolerances the actual dimensions are anyone's guess.

HTH

 

[Terry - Somerset]

That is sometimes an issue where you think a certain branded product is going to be better made but in reality you are not buying the product but the brand name. Some other manufacturers get away with a past reputation that is no longer there, German cars like VW and Mercedes are just not quality products anymore but try to sell on the basis they once were.


Axminster is probably trying to hold a wide range of products that they want to suit everyones requirements and not succeeding. If I were them I would drop the really bottom end products and leave them to another supplier. For example planner / thicknessers, reduce the product range and and now sell a much better product at just a little more than the bottom end one you have discontinued which should be feasable and customers will buy it. As for engineers squares, they are probably ok for the average woodworker but for precision metalworking there are better outlets. For a decent square for woodworking you can look at Woodpeckers products from the Woodworkers Workshop or Benchdogs do a range.

Th alternative marketing wisdom is to get new customers through the door.

For woodworking kit (as with may other items) new customers may often be inexperienced with limited wallets. They will frequently look online and initially be motivated by price over quality.

Provide a decent service to new customers and their first port of call when upgrading will be those who served them well last (first) time around.

As an occasional hobby woodworker Axminster was the main source for my initial set up. I found they provided a good service and still use them for advice and kit. They may make little money out of the hobby and DIY market as it requires a disproportionate amount of input and support.

The professional market is different - tool need to be reliable and longer lasting. Time is money and disruption due to tool or machine failure makes buying premium tools worthwhile.

 

[imageel]

At my local men's shed we had an Axminster floor standing pillar drill that had truly appalling runout due to the rise and fall mechanism being a sloppy fit in the head casting. After sending it back 3 times under warranty we finally got a refund in the form of a credit note which we used to purchase a more 'pro' model from them.
So whilst the original one was definitely a shoddy import that likely could only be fixed by line-boring it and fitting a sleeve - so likely an uneconomic remedy, we are more than happy with the quality of their customer service and of our new replacement!

 

[Drifter2406]

I have been saying for years now about Axminster's quality, when I first used them many years ago you were pretty much assured of good quality, never gave it a second thought, in recent times the quality has plummeted of a lot of products, the named stuff is still the same which would have their own quality issues and as everyone points out the price has shot up. I rarely use them now and certainly don't miss the customer experience.

 

[Delaney]

I think Axminster are still a good shop. They have lots of ideas and ways lf doing things. Walking around one was fun (they shut basingstoke).
They also have some good deals.
As Peter said, if I want something a bit more quality, I’ll check out his site and maybe workshop heaven.
I think Axminster panel saw at £7k + is starting to seem a bit expensive, given you get into the Felder K700 range at that price and the Altendorf.
I think if Axminster sold the Chinese Alternforf, which is a very good panel saw at a great price, it would make more sense than badging their own (likely manufactured by minimax or Houfek) than trying to compete with Felder.
Perhaps Alternforf said no to a distribution deal?