Are EV's good value? Apparently not!

[Dabop]

The issue needs much bigger thinking than some of the narrow views being expressed here.

Net zero is an aspiration in 2050 - 26 years away. We need to consider what needs to change, not regard apparent existing barriers as somehow insurmountable. They are not!

Key issue - the variability of wind and solar needs to be managed to to provide power when demand exceeds current generation. There are several options:

• baseload generation from low emissions sources - over the last year nuclear and hydro contributed 15% to output. New nuclear is already in the planning stage and tidal needs more development The optimal level of base load is debatable - materially higher than currently but both are achievable in the time available.
• energy storage is required - surplus generation needs to be stored and released when required. There are more radical options being explored - eg: sand batteries - but the obvious option is EV batteries - both installed in vehicles or recycled for home use.
• the average EV at present has a typical battery of ~50kw giving a rage of ~150-200 miles. The average house uses ~9kw of electricity per day. The average fully charged EV battery could provide power for several days if power can be fed back into the grid.
• the contribution of EV battery storage could be material - subject to baseload generation and modelling weather variability. There is plenty of time to develop and implement that which should be technically feasible.
• potential for wind and solar output is far in excess of that currently generated and double that estimated as required in the longer term.

It would be naïve to assume all this will happen easily - the roll out of EVs and banning gas boilers will increase demand for electricity over current levels over the next 10-30 years. The cost will be many £BN's. It needs a clear and focussed plan with government carrots and sticks (tax and subsidies) and take many years to achieve.

The prizes are elimination of fossil fuels whose costs are likely only to increase as they become more scarce, reduced reliance on international order for supply, and reduced pollution. IMHO the benefits justify the costs - folk are at liberty to disagree but to attribute disagreement to an inability to make necessary changes is a truly weak argument.

Here in Australia, pumped hydro storage is being expanded again, with even more systems being in the planning and preconstruction phase...

This means that solar and wind excess can be stored for overnight and for those times that it is needed...
Best of all, it doesn't need 'huge' dams or the restricted number of suitable sites that limits standard hydroelectric- all you need is a higher and a lower area (much smaller in size than existing hydro schemes) and a water source...

There are several designed to utilise old mining sites for example, and a couple looking at using sea water near the Great Dividing range in NSW- sure those will be a bit more expensive initially due to the corrosive nature of salt water, but it isn't exactly 'new tech' we are talking about here...
https://re100.eng.anu.edu.au/2024/0...d-be-converted-into-renewable-energy-storage/

Already partially in operation, and due to be expanded to its full capacity by mid this year...
https://genexpower.com.au/250mw-kidston-pumped-storage-hydro-project/

Plus the Snowy 2 conversion of pure hydroelectric into a
'hybrid' system with both source and pumped reuse options is nearing completion as well
https://www.snowyhydro.com.au/snowy-20/about/
With the various 'big battery' systems already in use, many of the older 'dino burner' plants will be retired early (indeed that is already happening with the likely shutting down of Australias largest coal burner next year, nearly a decade before it was due to be retired...)

 

[Crazy Dave]

Of course, it will run out at some point in time. But I say again...where is the power going to come from at night and without any wind ?

hydroelectric power?

 

[woodieallen]

hydroelectric power?

Possibly but not sure where the new sites might be in the UK. And, of course, fusion.

 

[Crazy Dave]

Possibly but not sure where the new sites might be in the UK. And, of course, fusion.

There are numerous redundant coal mines that could be converted up north for a start.
The Welsh have a massive reservoir that feeds water to the Midlands so why not stick a hydro generator in the pipe somewhere.

As my lovely mum used to say "Where there's a will there's a way".

 

[Rhossydd]

There are numerous redundant coal mines that could be converted up north for a start.

No. When coal is mined it doesn't leave a void, the seam collapses as soon as it's unsupported as the mechanical props move forward.

There are potential uses for other types of disused mines, but generally it's for geothermal power.

 

[Agent_zed]

additionally, although it won't help reduce current demand, all new houses should be built to much higher insulation standards and include things like passive solar gain. Older houses should seek to reduce their demand also where possible.
I'm working to make my house as energy efficient as possible as besides env reasons I would rather pay hardly anything to run my house and in cases where there are energy supply issues it would stay warmer for longer without.

IMO most of this doesn't come down to it being hard to do, it's due to money and control. Building companies don't want to lose profits or not pay their CEO's quite as much, energy companies don't want you to create your own free electric and the government finds it quite useful to have something they can be seen to be in charge of.

 

[Yojevol]

At last the government has announced funding for small nuclear station studies. Of course nimbyism will reach new heights.
Brian

 

[Jake]

Nuclear of any size is not cost competitive any more, and the small ones are worse not better on that front. There's a load of hype around them but unless goverments subsidise them massively that seems likely to die away with economic realities.

I also think lots of small ones is daft from a security rather than nimby perspective.

Fusion would be nice but still decades away from potential commercialisation.

 

[DrPhill]

energy companies don't want you to create your own free electric

https://octopus.energy/export-tariffs/

 

[Agent_zed]

https://octopus.energy/export-tariffs/

I need to re-phrase slighty - energy companies don't want the majority of people to create their own free electric. This only works if more people are buying than selling. Perhaps it won't be a problem if all cars become EV as demand will certainly increase.

Although why more EVs aren't putting solar panels into their cars I can't work out why. The Aptera can get 20miles worth of driving from the inbuilt panels even in the UK, 40miles in California. heck even 5miles a day would be good. Imagine if your ICE car gave you 5miles of driving just by sitting in the sun.

 

[DrPhill]

Nuclear of any size is not cost competitive any more, and the small ones are worse not better on that front. There's a load of hype around them but unless goverments subsidise them massively that seems likely to die away with economic realities.

Though if we use fast-breeder reactors we can consume our nuclear waste and turn it into energy. If we include the savings from not having to store and monitor the waste we might be onto a winning formula....... This technology has been bubbling along unfunded for quite a while:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2012/jul/30/fast-breeder-reactors-nuclear-waste-nightmare

 

[artie]

energy companies don't want you to create your own free electric

Please tell me how to create my own free electric, I'm all for it.

 

[artie]

I attended a bar b q on Easter Monday, walking in I saw a nice big hybrid car/suv type thingy I don't even recall the make.
I hunted down the owner so I could interrogate him.

I asked about charging times, he didn't know, how far will it go on a full charge, no idea. can you charge it while you drive, they say you can, but it uses more petrol so not worth the bother.

He bought it as a company car because of the tax breaks and drives it on petrol all the time.

 

[woodieallen]

...
I'm working to make my house as energy efficient as possible as besides env reasons I would rather pay hardly anything to run my house and in cases where there are energy supply issues it would stay warmer for longer without.

....

Ditto. When we bought our place the EPC value was 40 which is on the border between E and F. It is now on the border between D and C at 68

 

[sploo]

I attended a bar b q on Easter Monday, walking in I saw a nice big hybrid car/suv type thingy I don't even recall the make.
I hunted down the owner so I could interrogate him.

I asked about charging times, he didn't know, how far will it go on a full charge, no idea. can you charge it while you drive, they say you can, but it uses more petrol so not worth the bother.

He bought it as a company car because of the tax breaks and drives it on petrol all the time.

Does seem a bit daft that; because then he's bought a car with likely hundreds of kilos of extra ballast (thereby using extra fuel). For stop/start town driving the hybrid bit makes sense. Admittedly not so much if he's mostly doing motorway journeys.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Ditto. When we bought our place the EPC value was 40 which is on the border between E and F. It is now on the border between D and C at 68

When we bought ours they said if we replace the bulbs with low energy ones it would go up a level. There was one in the whole place that wasn't low energy. The "surveyor" did however miss twenty four feet of single block wall between the bungalow and the garage that should have been cavity to meet the regs. when it was built.

 

[John Brown]

I attended a bar b q on Easter Monday, walking in I saw a nice big hybrid car/suv type thingy I don't even recall the make.
I hunted down the owner so I could interrogate him.

I asked about charging times, he didn't know, how far will it go on a full charge, no idea. can you charge it while you drive, they say you can, but it uses more petrol so not worth the bother.

He bought it as a company car because of the tax breaks and drives it on petrol all the time.

This is part of the problem. One anecdote is so much more persuasive than proper information.
As to charging it while you drive using more petrol, you'd have to be fairly naive to assume otherwise.

 

[sploo]

As to charging it while you drive using more petrol, you'd have to be fairly naive to assume otherwise.

Yes, though if it's been implemented well then it'd charge the battery when the petrol engine is running efficiently, and if that then meant it had electric power to use during stop-start driving (rather than petrol) it might actually improve overall fuel consumption. Totally dependent on the driving scenario, granted.

 

[John Brown]

Yes, though if it's been implemented well then it'd charge the battery when the petrol engine is running efficiently, and if that then meant it had electric power to use during stop-start driving (rather than petrol) it might actually improve overall fuel consumption. Totally dependent on the driving scenario, granted.

Ok, having watched the display on our plug in hybrid, it does do exactly what you suggest, but if you actually select "charge mode," then the efficiency goes down.
We're lucky in that we bought a house that already had solar panels, and we rarely exceed the admittedly short range achievable on pure electric. I fully understand that, for some people, EVs may not be feasible right now.

 

[Agent_zed]

Please tell me how to create my own free electric, I'm all for it.

Not really sure what you are wanting.
This perhaps? https://science.howstuffworks.com/i...ons/how-to-make-potato-powered-light-bulb.htm although you are right this would cost you 2p and cost of a few nails (I'm assuming you would have grown your own potato).

You could take a car alternator and attach it to a bike on a stand and use the DC current to charge a battery. You'll get a free old bike off facebook. An alternator might cost you a few quid from someone scrapping a car but if you pedal hard enough you'll soon pay that off.
Or if you are feeling lazy you could build a small wind generator from the alternator and a bike wheel.

Alternatively you could fit PV solar panels to your house it would pay for itself in about 5-10 years and the remaining 10 years of service would provide completely free electric.