Are EV's good value? Apparently not!

[woodieallen]

None of the people I know with EV’s are rich or could be accused of virtue signalling. They drive them because they are clean, smooth, nice to drive and half the cost per mile of an ICE car.

One other guy I met also likes the fact his Tesla Model Y is faster off the lights than any road cars the Germans build but I guess he’s in the minority!

Edit: I just googled the question and whilst its probably only one of a thousand possible answers I suspect it’s pretty representative.

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If EVs are so fantastic then why is Hertz getting rid of 20,000 of them and replacing with petrol ICE ?

 

[Geoff_S]

If EVs are so fantastic then why is Hertz getting rid of 20,000 of them and replacing with petrol ICE ?

EV’s are fantastic if you can charge at home, off peak even better and you never travel more than its range before returning home to recharge.

Not so fantastic if you’re renting one and plan a longer journey and will need to rely on the public charging network. Even more daunting as well if you’ve never driven an EV and you are confronted with the multitude of charging options and all the nuances presented to you. Petrol just seems simpler.

Just my thoughts.

 

[John Brown]

EV’s are fantastic if you can charge at home, off peak even better and you never travel more than its range before returning home to recharge.

Not so fantastic if you’re renting one and plan a longer journey and will need to rely on the public charging network. Even more daunting as well if you’ve never driven an EV and you are confronted with the multitude of charging options and all the nuances presented to you.

Just my thoughts.

Completely agree. For a rental company, EVs seem like a strange choice.
A few maybe, but right now, a majority of EVs would be like having a majority of "stick shift" vehicles at an American rental company.

 

[Fergie 307]

Your first point ignores one little problem. The total demand is only 30GW. Probably middle of the night. Frequently demand is close to the maximum available. So where do you think that extra 10GW is going to come from? At the drop of a switch ? Immediately. Gas.

If I am reading it correctly it shows demand at midnight between Saturday and Sunday, hardly representative.

 

[Jake]

Your first point ignores one little problem. The total demand is only 30GW. Probably middle of the night. Frequently demand is close to the maximum available. So where do you think that extra 10GW is going to come from? At the drop of a switch ? Immediately. Gas.

Right now, you are of course right. But things will change (and are changing). Negative prices for solar at peak generation times are emerging as capacity builds (the reports I saw were in Germany not here, but they are ahead of us on solar), so that'll be a massive incentive for battery and other storage solutions. Plus more wind capacity, and wave seems like it is beginning to turn a corner. I think it's a really optimistic picture and can't see it as anything but positive economically and for energy security and general national security to get off dependence on fossil fuels for energy.

 

[woodieallen]

Right now, you are of course right. But things will change (and are changing). Negative prices for solar at peak generation times are emerging as capacity builds (the reports I saw were in Germany not here, but they are ahead of us on solar), so that'll be a massive incentive for battery and other storage solutions. Plus more wind capacity, and wave seems like it is beginning to turn a corner. I think it's a really optimistic picture and can't see it as anything but positive economically and for energy security and general national security to get off dependence on fossil fuels for energy.

Trouble with wind is that it doesn't always blow. And as for solar? Well, I could count the days we've seen any sun this year on the fingers of one hand. And the sun doesn't shine at night. We typically need 30GW at night. So you could cover the cuntry with solar. The North Sea with wind farms but at night, if there is no wind...where does that 30GW come from ?

 

[woodieallen]

If I am reading it correctly it shows demand at midnight between Saturday and Sunday, hardly representative.

Precisely my point and I was responding to the spin being placed on wind and solar by the OP. This is a more realistic picture and shows how dependent we are on gas to fill the shortfall when the wind doesn't blow.

 

[woodieallen]

And I'm afraid more bad news from the USA...

During the final few months of 2023, the market saw sales slowing, unsold electric vehicles piling up on dealer lots, Tesla struggling to get a handful of its much hyped CyberTrucks onto the market after five long years of promises, pure-play EV companies like Fisker teetering on the financial brink, and traditional automakers like Ford and GM announcing delays in their plans and investments for future EV development. Source: Telegraph

 

[Agent_zed]

Tesla struggling to get a handful of its much hyped CyberTrucks onto the market after five long years of promises,

not really surprising when Musk doubled the final price and more and more people have reported problems with the truck. Can't blame that on EV technology. that is just a bad implementation of an EV. If it was an ICE truck it would still be an overpriced poorly designed vehicle.

 

[Agent_zed]

Precisely my point and I was responding to the spin being placed on wind and solar by the OP. This is a more realistic picture and shows how dependent we are on gas to fill the shortfall when the wind doesn't blow.
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looks a lot more like how dependent we are on wind, seeing as that is providing far more generation than the few times gas has to step in. You realise natural gas is finite right? at some point in the next few decades it will run out or become vastly more expensive and is subject to nations deciding to withhold supplies if they so wish.

 

[woodieallen]

looks a lot more like how dependent we are on wind, seeing as that is providing far more generation than the few times gas has to step in. You realise natural gas is finite right? at some point in the next few decades it will run out or become vastly more expensive and is subject to nations deciding to withhold supplies if they so wish.

Of course, it will run out at some point in time. But I say again...where is the power going to come from at night and without any wind ?

 

[artie]

You realise natural gas is finite right? at some point in the next few decades it will run out or become vastly more expensive and is subject to nations deciding to withhold supplies if they so wish.

Is it possible to make gas ?

Maybe not economically.

 

[Agent_zed]

Of course, it will run out at some point in time. But I say again...where is the power going to come from at night and without any wind ?

Tidal and hydro would be a good place to invest for a start.

Also you can switch your sentence to say 'where is the power going to come from when there is no/limited gas'.

Bigger thinking needs to take place. I used to work at a school and despite having over 500 computers and hundreds of lights and other equipment running they had no solar panels on any of the largely flat roofs. I can't think of a better use senario, they would literally use the energy when it is generated. Same as the Lidl that was built in my town less than 3 years ago. It could have been covered with solar panels to make itself mostly self sufficient.

This is the same across the country, shop, offices and warehouses all using power throughout the day and barely any have solar panels. If they did then the carparks could all have charging points for the commuters cars and it would mostly balance out (if done correctly).

Most people don't need to charge to 100% every day, so you could have smart charging that only charges when the sun is shining.

 

[Agent_zed]

Is it possible to make gas ?

Maybe not economically.

yes, it already happens to a small degree. All of our food waste is sent to anerobic digesters to create methane. Denmark has a large amount due to pig farming. I think it accounted for about 15% of their energy production if I remember correctly.

 

[Jake]

Trouble with wind is that it doesn't always blow. And as for solar? Well, I could count the days we've seen any sun this year on the fingers of one hand. And the sun doesn't shine at night. We typically need 30GW at night. So you could cover the cuntry with solar. The North Sea with wind farms but at night, if there is no wind...where does that 30GW come from ?

Pretty unusual for the whole of the UK to be becalmed. The growing network of interconnectors is designed to increase diversity. You do not need to see the sun to generate, obviously though winter sun is weaker and fewer hours of it, but still economically viable at our latitude, and battery developments are proceeding at an incredible rate towards viable mass storage. Plenty of other strategies being worked on. The net zero target is for about half the area of land to be used for solar as is currently used for golf, so that's not a great point. Sure there are challenges to be met, but it'll be a better world if we work to meet them than if we just naysay.

 

[woodieallen]

Pretty unusual for the whole of the UK to be becalmed. The growing network of interconnectors is designed to increase diversity. You do not need to see the sun to generate, obviously though winter sun is weaker and fewer hours of it, but still economically viable at our latitude, and battery developments are proceeding at an incredible rate towards viable mass storage. Plenty of other strategies being worked on. The net zero target is for about half the area of land to be used for solar as is currently used for golf, so that's not a great point. Sure there are challenges to be met, but it'll be a better world if we work to meet them than if we just naysay.

I agree that we will get some solar power - even through cloud - but looking at the graphs, it is very, very low in winter.

And battery storage is all well and good. But where does the electricity come from in the first place?

 

[Ozi]

If I am reading it correctly it shows demand at midnight between Saturday and Sunday, hardly representative.

About 35% over the last 12 months

 

[John Brown]

I agree that we will get some solar power - even through cloud - but looking at the graphs, it is very, very low in winter.
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And battery storage is all well and good. But where does the electricity come from in the first place?

It comes from the periods when it is windy. I agree that the solar generation is low in winter, but if we had four times as many solar installations, and more wind turbines, things would be easier.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

The issue needs much bigger thinking than some of the narrow views being expressed here.

Net zero is an aspiration in 2050 - 26 years away. We need to consider what needs to change, not regard apparent existing barriers as somehow insurmountable. They are not!

Key issue - the variability of wind and solar needs to be managed to to provide power when demand exceeds current generation. There are several options:

• baseload generation from low emissions sources - over the last year nuclear and hydro contributed 15% to output. New nuclear is already in the planning stage and tidal needs more development The optimal level of base load is debatable - materially higher than currently but both are achievable in the time available.
• energy storage is required - surplus generation needs to be stored and released when required. There are more radical options being explored - eg: sand batteries - but the obvious option is EV batteries - both installed in vehicles or recycled for home use.
• the average EV at present has a typical battery of ~50kw giving a rage of ~150-200 miles. The average house uses ~9kw of electricity per day. The average fully charged EV battery could provide power for several days if power can be fed back into the grid.
• the contribution of EV battery storage could be material - subject to baseload generation and modelling weather variability. There is plenty of time to develop and implement that which should be technically feasible.
• potential for wind and solar output is far in excess of that currently generated and double that estimated as required in the longer term.

It would be naïve to assume all this will happen easily - the roll out of EVs and banning gas boilers will increase demand for electricity over current levels over the next 10-30 years. The cost will be many £BN's. It needs a clear and focussed plan with government carrots and sticks (tax and subsidies) and take many years to achieve.

The prizes are elimination of fossil fuels whose costs are likely only to increase as they become more scarce, reduced reliance on international order for supply, and reduced pollution. IMHO the benefits justify the costs - folk are at liberty to disagree but to attribute disagreement to an inability to make necessary changes is a truly weak argument.

 

[Jacob]

.......the benefits justify the costs - folk are at liberty to disagree but to attribute disagreement to an inability to make necessary changes is a truly weak argument.

In fact we have no alternative except to make necessary changes. We are entering a scenario worse than anything ever threatened by war and pestilence in the past and we should be on a war footing by now.
Today's news tells the same story - its happening, its speeding up: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68665166
IMHO its too late.