Are EV's good value? Apparently not!

[Cobbs]

I never knew there were right and wrong things to read, I'd be keen to know how to tell the difference.
The EU forecasts 30 million , or is it 300 million, electric cars on the road soon, so 7 or 8 years down the road there's going to be around that number of batteries to dispose of annually.
If the pro EV lobby gets their way that will increase.

Those batteries are almost entirely recyclable, so less waste and new opportunities for businesses that do the recycling.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

That the EV evolution started mainly at the premium end of the market is no surprise.

Initially EVs were uncompetitive in price sensitive markets simply due to battery cost - the cost of batteries 10 years ago were ~$500 kwh and have fallen to ~$150 kwh. Additionally folk with more limited funds are likely to be less accepting of risk with new technologies.

Reduced manufacturing costs and improved technology has allowed cheaper EVs with better range and performance. Designs are increasingly EV specific rather than existing ICE designs modified to incorporate EV tech. The allows EV design to be optimised.

The debate over EV environmental impacts compared to ICE is complex, and subject to the usual set of half truths and selective statistics depending upon the answer sought.

• the manufacture of battery packs seems to be more polluting than ICE. In terms of carbon emissions payback consensus seems to be around 2 years.
• some focus on other environmental outcomes - degradation due to mining and refining activities, ability to recycle spent batteries etc. Often used by the anti-EV brigade if the environmental payback argument fails to convince.
• the payback period depends on whether electricity is green or fossil fuelled. Wind turbines typically payback in about a year. Energy generated from gas brings little benefit to the EV debate - it changes location, with little impact on absolute emissions.

 

[jcassidy]

On point article;

Car auctions are full of used EV bargains – but should you take the plunge?

Best quote;

I get the feeling that the electric cars we’re seeing now are kind of the Betamax video before VHS

— Merlin O’Reilly, Merlin Car Auctions

 

[John Brown]

On point article;

Car auctions are full of used EV bargains – but should you take the plunge?

Best quote;

I get the feeling that the electric cars we’re seeing now are kind of the Betamax video before VHS

— Merlin O’Reilly, Merlin Car Auctions

So technically better quality, but beaten by longer playing time?

 

[artie]

Here's an article from the beeb.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56574779


"EV batteries are larger and heavier than those in regular cars and are made up of several hundred individual lithium-ion cells, all of which need dismantling. They contain hazardous materials, and have an inconvenient tendency to explode if disassembled incorrectly."

 

[artie]

I'm also pondering the morality of sending other peoples children down mines and exposing them to toxic chemicals so that ours can go to school in a cleaner environment.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...s-the-price-we-could-pay-for-a-greener-future

 

[Fitzroy]

will try again below

 

[sploo]

Here's an article from the beeb.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56574779


"EV batteries are larger and heavier than those in regular cars and are made up of several hundred individual lithium-ion cells, all of which need dismantling. They contain hazardous materials, and have an inconvenient tendency to explode if disassembled incorrectly."

That's a slightly odd statement; as of course EV batteries are larger and heavier than those in regular cars... because the batteries are the main source of an EV car's power. Shockingly, fuel tanks are larger and heavier in regular cars than EVs!

The other stuff; sure - small cells, nasty chemicals, and can go wrong if handled incorrectly.

 

[Keithgrif]

Admins, can this get moved to general chat or controversial topics please. Nothing to do with woodwork.

 

[sploo]

I'm also pondering the morality of sending other peoples children down mines and exposing them to toxic chemicals so that ours can go to school in a cleaner environment.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...s-the-price-we-could-pay-for-a-greener-future

It's terrible, but then the oil industry is terrible. All big manufacturing is terrible/evil/corrupt etc. etc.

 

[Fitzroy]

Artie,

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet over EVs. I sit in the opposite camp with the opinion that they are part of the solution, help me understand your view point. My thoughts are below, but on the whole I think EVs are an important part of the solution to reducing carbon emissions associated with personal and trade transport. There are definitely issues that need to be solved including battery recycling/disposal, child labor in rare materials mining, on street charging, grid peak load demands, vehicle cost and life span etc but none of these are so difficult economically, ethically or morally that I think EV development and deployment should be outlawed.

Fitz

Not that I know anything, but what I've read suggests that the pollution just happens at a different place and time.

This is both true and untrue. EVs use less energy per mile than an ICE car as they are designed to be more efficient. This energy is supplied from the grid which is partially renewable, 33% in the UK in 2023, and the remainder is generated in power stations that will have better efficiency than an ICE. So yes pollution is produced elsewhere, but there is also less of it per vehicle mile. As others state an EV takes more energy/resources to make than an ICE so it takes a number of miles before the EV becomes net pollution negative, the number of miles is considerably less than what an average EV is achieving in it's lifetime. As the uk grid gets more power from renewable sources then every EV on the road automatically becomes less polluting.

I never knew there were right and wrong things to read, I'd be keen to know how to tell the difference.
The EU forecasts 30 million , or is it 300 million, electric cars on the road soon, so 7 or 8 years down the road there's going to be around that number of batteries to dispose of annually.
If the pro EV lobby gets their way that will increase.

Every article on the internet has an angle and can be considered propaganda for something. There is nothing wrong or right to read but we need to interpret the evidence and articles as a collective and not cherry pick the messages we want to hear from any of them. Yes in the future there will be lots of used batteries to manage, so what? Batteries have been proven recyclable, an industry will build to provide this service, it will need to be managed and policed appropriately. Today 95% of an ICE car has to be recyclable, in 1970 less than 40% of a car was recycled. There is brass in muck as they say, and there is nothing to indicate this does not hold true for EV batteries.

Here's an article from the beeb.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56574779


"EV batteries are larger and heavier than those in regular cars and are made up of several hundred individual lithium-ion cells, all of which need dismantling. They contain hazardous materials, and have an inconvenient tendency to explode if disassembled incorrectly."

Dismantling an ICE 'battery' that is full of petrol also has a tendency to explode, hence you drain the fuel beforehand. All hazardous materials recycling needs to have appropriate procedures and processes. Some cowboys will not follow them and people/property will be damaged, this is not unique to EVs.

I'm also pondering the morality of sending other peoples children down mines and exposing them to toxic chemicals so that ours can go to school in a cleaner environment.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...s-the-price-we-could-pay-for-a-greener-future

Child labor has been a problem for years and needs to be eliminated, banning the industry is not the solution. When children were used to clean our chimneys we could have just stopped using open fires, 'ban the burn' could have been the party's slogan in Victorian times. However, the detriment to society would have been much more significant with thousands of deaths due to hypothermia in winter. In the end we brought in regulation and policy to stop the practice, eliminating the issue without having to eliminate the industry. Any child death or injury, or adult death or injury is unacceptable and companies and governments need to work to eliminate them through policy, regulation and policing.

edit: spelling and typos

 

[artie]

Artie,

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet over EVs.

Nope. I'm quite convinced they have their place.

but none of these are so difficult economically, ethically or morally that I think EV development and deployment should be outlawed.

Or I.

Fitz


This is both true and untrue. EVs use less energy per mile than an ICE car as they are designed to be more efficient. This energy is supplied from the grid which is partially renewable, 33% in the UK in 2023, and the remainder is generated in power stations that will have better efficiency than an ICE. So yes pollution is produced elsewhere, but there is also less of it per vehicle mile. As others state an EV takes more energy/resources to make than an ICE so it takes a number of miles before the EV becomes net pollution negative, the number of miles is considerably less than what an average EV is achieving in it's lifetime. As the uk grid gets more power from renewable sources then every EV on the road automatically becomes less polluting.


Every article on the internet has an angle and can be considered propaganda for something. There is nothing wrong or right to read but we need to interpret the evidence and articles as a collective and not cherry pick the messages we want to hear from any of them. Yes in the future there will be lots of used batteries to manage, so what? Batteries have been proven recyclable, an industry will build to provide this service, it will need to be managed and policed appropriately. Today 95% of an ICE car has to be recyclable, in 1970 less than 40% of a car was recycled. There is brass in muck as they say, and there is nothing to indicate this does not hold true for EV batteries.


Dismantling an ICE 'battery' that is full of petrol also has a tendency to explode, hence you drain the fuel beforehand. All hazardous materials recycling needs to have appropriate procedures and processes. Some cowboys will not follow them and people/property will be damaged, this is not unique to EVs.


Child labor has been a problem for years and needs to be eliminated, banning the industry is not the solution. When children were used to clean our chimneys we could have just stopped using open fires, 'ban the burn' could have been the party's slogan in Victorian times. However, the detriment to society would have been much more significant with thousands of deaths due to hypothermia in winter. In the end we brought in regulation and policy to stop the practice, eliminating the issue without having to eliminate the industry. Any child death or injury, or adult death or injury is unacceptable and companies and governments need to work to eliminate them through policy, regulation and policing.

edit: spelling and typos

As for the rest of that, Blagh, blagh, blagh.

When the Gov gets involved telling manufacturers what they have to make and how many they have to sell, how many we can buy and when, it's a problem.

If EVs are so good people will buy them without threats.

 

[sploo]

When the Gov gets involved telling manufacturers what they have to make and how many they have to sell, how many we can buy and when, it's a problem.

If EVs are so good people will buy them without threats.

Not sure about that.

If governments don't get involved in legislation then corporations will make products as cheaply and easily as they can (regardless of the environment or safety of workers).

Unfortunately, companies (and to some extent) "the people" do need to be led/ruled in order to stop them doing daft/short-sighted/selfish things.

 

[artie]

Unfortunately, companies (and to some extent) "the people" do need to be led/ruled in order to stop them doing daft/short-sighted/selfish things.

Like the hugely successful RHI scheme where people were paid to burn fuel whether needed or not?

 

[Dave Moore]

EV batteries are typically guaranteed for 8 years and a minimum of 70% capacity.

Tesla claim a typical loss of 12% after 200k miles. Reports by Which (consumer mag) estimate an average loss of 2.3% pa - although in more recent EVs the rate of loss has reduced.

I have no doubt there are examples of battery failure at a low mileage or age. The same is equally true of ICE where failure within a couple of years or 30k is rare but not unknown.

Using unusual EV battery failures as the basis for ICE over EV is a product of selecting data to support the conclusion wanted, not rationally analysing outcomes.

The real issue - EV batteries are still relatively immature technology and evolving - this means that spares are limited for vehicle components which sold only in low quantities, and manufacturers reluctant to remanufacture low volume and obsolete batteries.

Whether manufacturers adequately compensate those whose batteries fail if they cannot repair is unknown - probably varies just as with warranty claims on ICE.

Wait until you want to sell it, no dealers want them. If you charge them with a fast charger it kills the batteries even quicker.

 

[MF1000]

Those batteries are almost entirely recyclable, so less waste and new opportunities for businesses that do the recycling.

 

[Spectric]

EV's are a good idea but still in it's infancy when it comes to the batteries, with these you are 100% reliant on them and a Hybrid gives you the ICE as a backup so should never get stuck looking for somewhere to charge or stuck in a queue waiting. Anyone know if hybrids hold there value better than an EV ?

If you saw the news tonight then you would have seen the massive amount of money needed to upgrade our national grid and to build more pylons, guess who is going to be paying a fair whack ? This will increase our energy bills and the cost of charging EV's so at the moment we are in the EV promotional phase but at some point the lost duty on fuel will be recouped some how and along with increased charging cost they could end up almost as expensive to run as a ICE car but zero emisions from the user perspective, the pollution will come from the energy generation unless it is wind, solar or tidal.

 

[John Brown]

EV's are a good idea but still in it's infancy when it comes to the batteries, with these you are 100% reliant on them and a Hybrid gives you the ICE as a backup so should never get stuck looking for somewhere to charge or stuck in a queue waiting. Anyone know if hybrids hold there value better than an EV ?

If you saw the news tonight then you would have seen the massive amount of money needed to upgrade our national grid and to build more pylons, guess who is going to be paying a fair whack ? This will increase our energy bills and the cost of charging EV's so at the moment we are in the EV promotional phase but at some point the lost duty on fuel will be recouped some how and along with increased charging cost they could end up almost as expensive to run as a ICE car but zero emisions from the user perspective, the pollution will come from the energy generation unless it is wind, solar or tidal.

They already are almost as expensive to run as an ICE car, since electricity prices soared, but maybe that's not why people buy them. We'll need to upgrade the grid if everyone fits ASHPs as well, by the way.

 

[Terrytpot]

I am so glad I did my own research and cost analysis of ownership of an ev instead of relying on the diatribe posted in here and within the general media. Apparently my car will cost far too much, will depreciate insanely, will be the cause of opening up another hole in the ozone layer and will probably spontaneously burst into flames without warning in my first year of ownership. Imagine my surprise then that it’s not only ridiculously cheap to run on the green power source available to me , that it’s not deprecated any more than my previous ice vehicles and bizarrely has yet to burst into flames. The only thing that niggles me is the “anti ev” propaganda does have an influence and as such has a negative impact on them, an example in point being insuring said vehicles. Historically any insurance provider would ask if you had “x” or “y” safety features and then say your policy would have been cheaper if you did…now that we do have all of those safety features it’s used as an excuse to penalise you as the vehicle will be more expensive to repair in the accident that it’s less likely to be involved in!

 

[selectortone]

Apparently my car will cost far too much, will depreciate insanely, will be the cause of opening up another hole in the ozone layer and will probably spontaneously burst into flames without warning in my first year of ownership.

It must be true, you read it on the internet!