Applying Shellac

[wizer]

He used the shellac to seal the wood in that example. The main reason I wanted to use it was that it seemed like an easy to apply finish. This hasn't turned out to be the case.

Yet another failed attempt tonight. I just can't get it even. I was chasing dribbles and blobs back and forth until they just dried. So I'd go back and get more on the brush and then play the same game of either having blobs on the edge or a line down the side. I did the best I could and then waited 30mins. It mostly looked good but with horrible edges. It made my work look even more amateurish So out came the meths and I rubbed it down a bit and tomorrow night I'll sand it back from 80-240 then apply osmo.

Maybe I'll try it again one day with proper flakes.

 

[Streepips]

A few things about Shellac.......

Shellac can act as a primer sealer for any top coat.... it is neutral and will not react with water, spirit or oil based top coats.
Shellac is still the only product recommended for gluing together broken grindstones..
Shellac is used for the coating on hard shelled pills, the ones like smartiesl. Even in the most advanced pharmacutical production processing
Shellach is what stiffens the brushed felt used by hatmakers to make shaped stiff hats , the best example being Top hats and Bowler hats.
Shellac is a totally natural product, being basically shellac beetle ****, and is still gathered by hand, scraped from branches because it is not retrievable mechanically.
Shellac can only be diluted with methylated spirits.
Shellac has a long pot life and a long shelf life although it is always best used fresh.
Shellac is not poisonous, caustic, toxic, acid or alkali nor causes rust or staining and will not cause an adverse reaction with anything else.
Shellac is quick drying and makes a permanent yet reversible bond between any two substances.

It is really worthwhile mastering the use and properties of shellac, especially but not exclusively in woodworking, once you have learned how to use shellac then there are many more opportunities and choices in how to make finish and repair things to a degree that is unachievable using more modern chemical equivalents.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Shellac can act as a primer sealer for any top coat.... it is neutral and will not react with water, spirit or oil based top coats.

True, but for the statement to apply completely it should read "dewaxed shellac can act as a primer sealer for any top coat..."

Water based wood finishes don't adhere properly to regular shellac, ie, the stuff with wax in it.

My preferred method of applying shellac is with a spray gun; I appreciate it's not quite the same as French polishing, but it is very fast. Slainte.

 

[Streepips]

Thanks Sgian, quite right.
It was just an impromptu list off the top off my head, so a bit lacking in detail.

I see you are in Leeds... I did my City and Guilds ( Furniture design and construction) there, Jacob Kramer College, when it was in the old building next to the Civic Theatre..... The other students on the course were lads from Robert Thompsons of Kilburn.

 

[Derek Willis.]

Just look at some old 1930's furniture and you will see that in the majority of cases the finish is sprayed-on shellac as it was a cheap and very quick finish, it is so easily repaired by rubbing over it or by re-amalgamation of the finish, in that you just use methylated to soften the finish and then re- polish.
Derek.

 

[paulm]

Yet another failed attempt tonight. I just can't get it even. I was chasing dribbles and blobs back and forth until they just dried. So I'd go back and get more on the brush and then play the same game of either having blobs on the edge or a line down the side. I did the best I could and then waited 30mins. It mostly looked good but with horrible edges. It made my work look even more amateurish So out came the meths and I rubbed it down a bit and tomorrow night I'll sand it back from 80-240 then apply osmo.

Maybe I'll try it again one day with proper flakes.

Not that I've ever tried french polish (yet, but sounds great so will give it a go sometime), but sounds like you might be overloading the brush or rubber Tom ? Lots of very thin coats rather than few thick ones might work better ?

Cheers, Paul

 

[Woodfinish Man]

Tom, there's only one answer for it, make a trip up to sunny scotland for our 1 day French Polishing Course! I promise you'll love it and it is so worth the journey - we've been absolutely amazed by the positive feedback.

All you need to do is bring a piece that has had all of the old finish removed and by the end of the day it will have been stained (if you want) shellac sanding sealered, rubbered and waxed! In the process you're also showed how to make you own shellac, use polishing mops and much more.

Go on...I'll even throw in a free french polishing kit and maybe a wee dram!

Ian

 

[wizer]

Would love to Ian but too far from 'actually' sunny Kent

Perhaps next year.

Paul, you might well be right about too much finish on the brush. But I was using one of those metal take-away tins with about 6mm full. Last night I bought and used 2 new natural brushes. A thin round sash brush for the edges and a 2 inch for the flat surfaces. I dabbed just the very tip in the finish each time. It was a toss up between having enough liquid on the brush to make a full pass (300mm in length) or not enough that it ran out and dragged by the time I got to the other end. When I got the build up on the edges, I had to get enough finish on the brush to 'move' the underlying finish. This then resulted on the excess building up somewhere else. It was like cat and mouse.

Frustratingly, when I got the meths out to rub off the finish, it levelled most of the finish and looked relatively nice, but patchy in small areas.

They do shellac sanding sealer in an aerosol, maybe I'll try that. But realistically I just want this finished now.

 

[Woodfinish Man]

It's only 8 hours from Kent! Hope to see you up here at some point, as I said you'll get so much out of the day - our instructors are just excellent and the whole day is carried out with lots of laughs.

As for your exisiting trials, have to agree with a couple of other posts - to give shellac a decent chance as a finish you really need to invest in a polishing mop and or rubber it on.

The polishing mops are designed to hold the polish and once loaded go into a point - they really would make all the difference. Keep persisting!

Ian

 

[Digit]

What Ian says about the brush, (mop) is spot on wiser. On a small piece your brushes might well do the trick, but now you have seen why a 'proper' brush is needed.
But it's nice to see you persisting, it CAN be done, and as I commented earlier, once you've cracked it you'll wonder what the problems were, and remember this mate. The greater the struggle the greater the satisfaction when you finally achieve that beautiful finish.
Stick with it!

Roy.

 

[beech1948]

Wizer,

I think your using the wrong stuff. Shellac sanding sealer is too diluted to work well, has other components in it to make it bulk up.

Put it back in the tin and on the shelf.

Buy some blond Shellac and some colourless meths. Dissolve one into the other to the required strength - say a 2lb cut - and have a go.

The difference will be amazing.

The problems you are having is using the wrong type and mix of shellac.

regards
Alan

 

[Derek Willis.]

Exactly the words I used way back on page 2.

 

[wizer]

Thanks Alan. I suspected that. I'll try it on the next project.

 

[Matt@]

just browsing this thread and a few thoughts....

From the OP first post, it sounds like the polish is too thick. If it were thinned, it would go onto the wood surface alot thinner but smoother. So, to experiment - try thinning the polish from the container with 50% meths then try rubbering it on(one coat at a time) and repeat at 30 min intervals until the finish builds up. On the other hand, if its old stock, it'll be a pain in the ar$e.(see below)

Another thing, shellac polishes do degrade with age (12 months) buying products from Toolstation - I bet that polish has been on the shelf 12 months minimum. Old stock = a finish that doesnt harden. Buy polishes from good trade sources - Fiddes/ Mylands etc or make your own with flake and meths to guarentee freshness and hardness.

Re. uneven surface after polishing - what cloth are you using for the rubber? if its anything other than 100% cotton (ie bedsheets) it'll skate over the surface and produce a finish that wouldnt look out of place on a dustbin lid.

Shellac sanding sealer - a great product in theory but tricky to use if you are not careful. It lends itself to one coat only really for best results and as a base for french polishing with a rubber. As soon as you start using multiple coats, the finish gets ridged and uneven. Another thing to bear in mind with sealer application is not to brush out too much and don't over brush even though the finish will look crap as it goes on (particulalrly under strip lights) . Finally sealer contains stearates - making for a soft base for an ensuing finish - really shellac sanding sealer is only good for once sealing, rubbing down with wire wool and waxing..

hope the above helps a bit - is the job finished now

 

[Derek Willis.]

If you are a regular user of Shellac for use in French Polish, you will know that it degrades over a period of time, therefore do what anyone who uses it regularly does, make your own with shellac flakes, but a bit at a time, enough for the jobs in hand, I only use a couple of types of flake, and in the main stick to Blonde de-waxed flakes, this makes for an excellent all round polish when mixed at 250g. to the litre. and do keep your rubber moving and slide off rather than lift, likewise when starting an operation, slide on, it won't take long to get the hang of it and you will be rewarded with a grand result.
Derek.

 

[TheTiddles]

Shellac is used for the coating on hard shelled pills, the ones like smartiesl. Even in the most advanced pharmacutical production processing

:lol: :lol: :lol: Is this call my bluff?!

You're half right, it was used, the problem being with any "natural" product it has to be quantified on a batch process so you have to kill a few mice with each batch to check the toxic level, cellulose acetate phthalate is the modern alternative

Aidan

 

[Mr Ed]

I reckon the secret here is the mix - I use David Charlesworths advice for a really thin mix, which dries quick and is so light that you don't get sticky puddles forming.

20 Grammes of Hock blond dewaxed flakes to 200ml clear meths works for me.

I apply with a rubber, working from the middle of a surface to the edges, with coats in sets of 3, denibbing after each set. This mix is so light it dries in minutes so the coats build up very quick.

I have always had great success with this method - it was written out in detail by DC in F&C's 86 and 88.

Cheers, Ed

 

[yetloh]

Just worked my way through this thread and a few points occur to me

First, someone said you can only make up shellac with meths; not true, I have always used Morrells finishing spirit which I think is pure alcohol with just enough shellac added to make it unpalatable. I believe this is the stuff John Lloyd uses.

Second, in my relatively limited experience, it doesn't matter much how you apply it - as someone said, it is impossible to mess up shellac because it is so easy to put right. The most important thing is to get a reasonably good thickness on. If you find you have a ridge or a run, I have found the best starting point is a cabinet scraper. This is much quicker than sanding and will very quickly give a nice flat surface to work with which can be "pulled over" with a rubber and some finishing spirit or simply sanded as smoothly as you want for the level of sheen or shine you are after, finishing with wax.

What has always puzzled me is the use of grain fillers with shellac. For me, one of the main reasons for using shellac is its clarity which enhances that most desirable of wood characteristics, lustre. Grain fillers are I believe, basically opaque minerals which can surely only obscure lustre. To me it must be better to take the time to fill the grain with shellac. Perhaps one of our experts can enlarge on this.

Lastly, durability aside, why would anyone put a water borne finish over shellac? I have yet to find (and I have certainly tried) a water borne finish which does not obscure lustre. For me, the holy grail of water borne finishes is one with true clarity. I do hope someone will crack this problem, then I can abandon the use of pre-catalysed melamine lacquer which combines durability with clarity but is both noxious and enviromentally unfriendly.

Jim