Anyone using a Faithfull No 7, good or avoid

[ps.harris80]

Hi all

As subject really, anyone tried oe of the Faithfull No.7 planes.

At under £60 are they a good plane or not worth bothering with.

Out if not all the usual makes are out of my budget range, even old rusty ones on eBay are above what I would want yo spend on an occasional use tool.

Are the Faithfull planes usable once fettled and sharpened.

Tanks for any input on this.

Paul

 

[thetyreman]

it'll be rubbish, not worth it, much better off getting a vintage one on ebay, I got an old record no7 for about £70, it's worth paying a bit more if it's in really good condition.

 

[Jameshow]

I have a number 3,4,5,6 and 10 mine have been fine for my level of woodworking!

Better than the silverline type stuff.

I have a record and Stanley 4 and 6 but cannot really tell the difference!

 

[D_W]

Hi all

As subject really, anyone tried oe of the Faithfull No.7 planes.

At under £60 are they a good plane or not worth bothering with.

Out if not all the usual makes are out of my budget range, even old rusty ones on eBay are above what I would want yo spend on an occasional use tool.

Are the Faithfull planes usable once fettled and sharpened.

Tanks for any input on this.

Paul

A huge question on a jointer is going to be flatness, and if it's not flat, your ability to get it flat. It's probably not a small task.

I think if you need a jointer and 60 is your price target...well, I guess my thoughts on that are also going to be dependent on something - a wooden jointer would be suitable and the sole could be planed or lap/sanded flat a lot more easily.

But if it's not fitted well when you get it then that's something you have to be able to tackle.

Just looking at the picture of the faithfull, the lever cap ends behind the cap iron hump instead of on top of it. That suggests that if you're going to use it to actually stop tearout, anything intermittent could create a problem with jamming shavings.

there's just too many little details that were right on stanley planes that others get wrong - even record manages to get some wild ideas that don't work, as I found out recently using an old and good-era record. The lever cap has a hook-ish shape that goes over the cap iron and it makes easy adjustment impossible. There's no fix for it because you can't grind it flatter or you'll grind the tip of the lever cap off. Plane works great with a stanley lever cap - no clue what record was thinking.

if you have 60 now, I'd sit until you find another 60 and get a somewhat recent stanley, but relatively (1950s or 1960s).

I haven't had better luck with older stanleys than new, and the former are more likely to be worn out or have had parts swapped or broken.

 

[thetyreman]

never had a problem with an old record plane here, everything works fine, don't worry about that, just buy one and get to work, the no7 is my favourite plane of them all.

 

[bushwhaker]

Тhis might be worth a look.

 

[Homeless Squirrel]

A huge question on a jointer is going to be flatness, and if it's not flat, your ability to get it flat. It's probably not a small task.

I think if you need a jointer and 60 is your price target...well, I guess my thoughts on that are also going to be dependent on something - a wooden jointer would be suitable and the sole could be planed or lap/sanded flat a lot more easily.

But if it's not fitted well when you get it then that's something you have to be able to tackle.

Just looking at the picture of the faithfull, the lever cap ends behind the cap iron hump instead of on top of it. That suggests that if you're going to use it to actually stop tearout, anything intermittent could create a problem with jamming shavings.

there's just too many little details that were right on stanley planes that others get wrong - even record manages to get some wild ideas that don't work, as I found out recently using an old and good-era record. The lever cap has a hook-ish shape that goes over the cap iron and it makes easy adjustment impossible. There's no fix for it because you can't grind it flatter or you'll grind the tip of the lever cap off. Plane works great with a stanley lever cap - no clue what record was thinking.

if you have 60 now, I'd sit until you find another 60 and get a somewhat recent stanley, but relatively (1950s or 1960s).

I haven't had better luck with older stanleys than new, and the former are more likely to be worn out or have had parts swapped or broken.

But don't really matter if bits have been changed as long as planes wood nicely...Unless want to stand there Jizzing all over it?

 

[D_W]

The latter probably would cause rust.

the trouble with replacement parts is they often don't work.

I was reminded of this only last week - getting a sweetheart era no 8 that looked nice in the listing.
* the handle was not the original handle and didn't even fit on the plane fastened on the whole way
* the frog screws were replaced with newer screws and one of them had turned the threads out in the casting, but fortunately only the first couple

I fished a correct handle off of another plane of mine, but now I have to make another for that one, and replaced the frog screws with older longer screws.

I had these. If i didn't have them, the plane wouldn't be usable. I don't see these kinds of things on later type stanleys because nobody really ever used most of them much and they're almost always in near new condition.

There used to be a rumor that the later planes are less flat, the irons aren't usable, etc, but this is not really the case. The later planes (pre-mexico and pre plastic handle) have been flatter on average than older planes - that's also the case with the 8 that I just received (sweetheart era). That one is substantially convex as new, but sometimes they go the other way.

I don't know an easy way to make this kind of thing easily judged by a beginner as I don't care for the round top stanley irons and have found rehardening them that they really don't have that much upside. They're a lower carbon steel that's easier to nail heat treating. I can reharden some of the earlier irons and 750 chisels to something most now would find really desirable. Even the butter soft early block plane irons are some kind of water hardening steel with tungsten in it. They are *really* nice rehardened.

 

[Ttrees]

Тhis might be worth a look.

It's the kinda thing that I'd be looking for....
I'd need to see toe and heel head on to be convinced the sole was as hefty
as the thick sides on this particular plane might suggest.
Possibly unusual to come across photos of such, but never had a seller refuse.
Very easy to come across some longer planes which are lapped thin on both ends.

I guess it may be a heavier example than anything else you might find with thicker sides than usual, like what I presume the Faithfull planes to be like?
@Jameshow might be able to give us more of an idea in that regards,
should he have a post on these, someone has IIRC .


Possibly a bit too nice compared to something which has a light haze of rust,
I don't trawl ebay looking at planes, and reckon it may easily be more difficult to come across as many somewhat specialized planes, than it has been for the last few years, but reckon there's still a good chance of getting a nice one for sixty, same as the above, but....
you might end up finding another plane which is too good a deal to pass whilst your looking, and it might actually find a use for someone who's willing to swing a no.7.

 

[Homeless Squirrel]

Which was the point of my other post in thread do stanley still make a 7.
Seemed a tad beyond many though? there has to be a point where they progress from delicate/fragile and fiddly to set up with coarser parts.
Ok some of the steel/blades was higher quality and got rosewood handles!
They then progressed to a point where the bases are decently cast smooth tight grained square and flat.Frogs cast right.Cap iron works and easy to set.Blade might not be the best but good.Ok maybe not rosewood but of a decent standard and plane works and is reliable in use.
Then the Bean counters land and it all goes ***'s up quality is going down fast like your saying about shifting to Mexico and Record to ???

Type1 to Type? must be types in there that are the sweeter spots of plane

 

[D_W]

Which was the point of my other post in thread do stanley still make a 7.
Seemed a tad beyond many though? there has to be a point where they progress from delicate/fragile and fiddly to set up with coarser parts.
Ok some of the steel/blades was higher quality and got rosewood handles!
They then progressed to a point where the bases are decently cast smooth tight grained square and flat.Frogs cast right.Cap iron works and easy to set.Blade might not be the best but good.Ok maybe not rosewood but of a decent standard and plane works and is reliable in use.
Then the Bean counters land and it all goes ***'s up quality is going down fast like your saying about shifting to Mexico and Record to ???

Type1 to Type? must be types in there that are the sweeter spots of plane

I doubt many on here have had a gaggle of types.

I don't know if I've had anything before type 6, but I have had something around there as well as a bunch of 9-11 early on. We were all led to believe here in the states for a short period of time that Type 11 was "the best", which was strange because collectors were paying more for sweetheart types.

"anything with a tall knob won't be as good as type 11". I don't know where those notions come from.

What's good? Type 20 and before. What's not? plans where the frog to casting isn't a continuous surface (later english and now mexico - found out quickly that the current production 7 jointer isn't worth getting).

I've perhaps had 80 or 100? not sure - stanley type planes over the years. I have more than I need now but only a small fraction of that still - 15? 10?

Whatever it is, it's probably 10. I had less trouble with later planes that weren't worn, and far more trouble with earlier planes that were worn or with parts swapped. Thus the comment.

This isn't really a paint by numbers thing, because there's an "and" in it.

A type 11 is a nice plane, but it has to be type 11 and no unusual wear and no improperly switched parts. Parts that were switched that match well, no big deal, but it's more common for someone to have three complete planes and then a bunch of others and do whatever they can to finish out one or two of those and dump them on ebay.

Nobody was using the 8 that I just bought, but this is what the listing said:

This is a vintage Stanley Bailey #8 flat bottom plane in very nice condition. It has a Patent date of April 9 1910. The plane is carrying a Stanley Sweetheart blade.It has been stored away for many years

It's like the famous line said here about farm equipment. "was running when last parked" (still ran a little with a window in the block and the rear differential is stripped of most of its teeth, but that part, we'll let you find on your own).

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/~7UAAOSwENhjXJbX/s-l1600.jpg
hopefully, you can see that image. Can you tell that the handle doesn't fit? i couldn't. If you look closely, you can just barely see that it's about 3/16ths diagonal on the casting, can't be installed straight and it can't be screwed down the whole way.

The one frog screw won't even stay in the casting if you turn the plane upside down, but the seller individually wrapped all of the parts, so that was a secret.

I could return the plane, but I'm not the kind of person who does that if I can work with what I get. This is at the edge of how far I'll go with that - it could be something someone's dad bought 10 years ago.

What chance does a beginner have with this? Toe was very low and it would not plane a matched edge, either, but it would probably have been OK for a jobsite roughly flushing house joints.

 

[D_W]

Here's a comparble plane - a 7. I also just bought this in the last month or two. It's so good i'm going to dump my I. Sorby plane, which is also wonderful, but this plane actually adjusts a little better and I've got it stupid flat. It was out of flat about 2 thousandths of an inch.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/HUgAAOSwYitjPG~0/s-l1600.jpg
Handles are beech, not rosewood, and it's a little heavier than some early types. The irons have a bad reputation.

here's what i was told about these planes when I first started:
* those plane have the mouth cut from the sole side, they're junk
* the irons are terrible
* the frog has coarse sanding marks on it
* the handles are cheap beech

I have four of them now. Not four jointers, but four type 20s. They're all wonderful. The ones that came with a round top iron, those are a touch soft for smoothing, but other than that.

I can make a statement about the quality that this plane is capable of. The cobbled 8 above had a very low toe and then once that's corrected, the bottom is somewhat convex. It would take me a very long time to remove it, so I'm not going to, at least not in the near future.

The later plane here works better in every way and all of the screws, thread, parts, etc, undamaged.

does the quality difference between the two matter? If I'm bookmatching a guitar top, I'll take the later plane every time. I can use the cobbled 8 and do the same, but if I had to do 15 edges a day, it would start to be annoying.

the record 8 that I now have to dump is intolerable because of the cap iron. I've had other record planes and don't remember the same thing, but it was mentioned elsewhere that charlesworth had the same problem and replaced the cap iron instead. That shouldn't be needed. The short answer is, what can you buy that will work right out of the box and not be expensive? Sometimes anything.

Sometimes not much.

but if you're in it for the long haul and learn what's important, then getting perfect out of the box isn't a big deal and as soon as you get it once, you're done.

it really doesn't have much to do with types - but I've found over time that the odds are backwards from what everyone says.

Why?

Because I don't think most people do nearly as much woodworking as they say or the way they say they do it.

 

[Jameshow]

It's the kinda thing that I'd be looking for....
I'd need to see toe and heel head on to be convinced the sole was as hefty
as the thick sides on this particular plane might suggest.
Possibly unusual to come across photos of such, but never had a seller refuse.
Very easy to come across some longer planes which are lapped thin on both ends.

I guess it may be a heavier example than anything else you might find with thicker sides than usual, like what I presume the Faithfull planes to be like?
@Jameshow might be able to give us more of an idea in that regards,
should he have a post on these, someone has IIRC .


Possibly a bit too nice compared to something which has a light haze of rust,
I don't trawl ebay looking at planes, and reckon it may easily be more difficult to come across as many somewhat specialized planes, than it has been for the last few years, but reckon there's still a good chance of getting a nice one for sixty, same as the above, but....
you might end up finding another plane which is too good a deal to pass whilst your looking, and it might actually find a use for someone who's willing to swing a no.7.

Sorry I've mislead you I have a 5. 1/2 Stanley and a 6 faithful.

Faithful must be 500gms heaver like for like.
You can see the extra material in the faithful nose and tail..

Stanley 5 1/2

Faithful 6

Faithful nose

Stanley nose

 

[Jameshow]

Faithful tail

Stanley rear

 

[Ttrees]

@Jameshow
I don't have a good photo of what I mean by a head on photo.
Best I've got is a shot of the toes of these no.5 1/2's
One can see plenty of meat on these, which is good insurance if buying a plane.

I forgot I have a picture of what to avoid, nevermind the cracks lol,
it might be a more suitable pic.

Forgot those Faithfull's had turnscrews rather than levers.
Must admit that is something which I'd turn my nose up at, if buying a nice bench plane...if I had to buy new and cheap (and something with a finer mouth, and not a big huge one on many newer cheap planes)
but perhaps can you retrofit a bailey levercap to it?

Perhaps it's good to have something distinguishable but not annoying though.
Not sure what it would take me to have a proper noticeable difference,
having used my scrubby modernish stanley with plastic tote and hack job front knob rather than my more "refined" smoother by mistake.

 

[Jameshow]

@Jameshow
I don't have a good photo of what I mean by a head on photo.
Best I've got is a shot of the toes of these no.5 1/2's
One can see plenty of meat on these, which is good insurance if buying a plane.
View attachment 147344

Forgot those Faithfull's had turnscrews rather than levers.
Must admit that is something which I'd turn my nose up at, if buying a nice bench plane...if I had to buy new and cheap.
but perhaps can you retrofit a bailey levercap to it?

Yes they are more meaty with the double thickness of the nose, and the sides being quite thick too.

 

[D_W]

Faithful tail

Stanley rear

(weight difference paraphrased here by DW after accidentally deleting it with pictures)

re: the weight difference - I've noticed the modern mexico stanleys are heavier. It's not a pleasant trade in any significant volume of work.

The older 7s that I have are 7 pounds on the light end and 8lb 3oz on the heavy side (both the i. sorby and the type 20 stanley).

The modern mex stanley was heavier than any of them by a pound and thus more nose heavy - most planes will become nose heavy as the casting weight increases.

The mex stanley casting was also very hard. I'm speculating that the extra weight and hard castings make it possible to machine the castings faster and more harshly without flexing the plane as much as the older planes.

 

[Jameshow]

Indeed he faithful no6 is 3.5kg whilst your 8lb3 no7 is 3.7kg so the faithfully is even if heavier!!

 

[RobNichols]

I have a Faithful No.7 and enjoy using it. It does a good job of jointing boards and I've used it successfully on a number of projects. I spent an hour or so flattening the bottom when I first got it. I also have a wooden plane of the same length. Both work well. The wooden plane was cheaper than the Faithful, and if I was only going to have the one, I'd go for the wooden one. However, I still think the Faithful is a bargain at the price. I like the easy adjustability of Faithful, but the there's something special about using a wooden plane.

I also like having the two of them. I don't know why, but alternating between the two often seems to be more effective than just using one of them.

I have a Rapier 500 which I tend to use to initially remove material. I then move to either a Stanley 5 or the jointing planes to flatten the board depending on the length of the board.

 

[thetyreman]

the quality of the castings on old planes are far superior, any stress that was in the metal will have long gone, also the quality of all the screws, frog, parts e.t.c will be better as well, unless it's something amazing and high end like a clifton, lie neilsen or veritas but that will cost you a premium.